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  #31  
Old 03-21-2006, 06:16 PM
IliamnasQuest IliamnasQuest is offline
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My view on titles is this:

When I look at an AKC Championship title, I can't say I'm tremendously impressed. The AKC has set things up in a way that allows considerable cheating. Judges are allowed so much leeway in their choice of "type" that extremes are being awarded the points and these extremes are causing all sorts of problems in the breeds (I definitely see this in my two breeds - German shepherds and Chows). Dogs win because of the prestige of the handler or owner at times, instead of the quality of the dog. People pad a class with inferior dogs to be able to title one particular dog. The whole system is flawed and no one at AKC seems to want to change it.

The whole concept of the point system is to make money for the AKC, not to truly credit dogs that have the proper qualities. They suck people in and get them to pay time after time but unless you have a dog with the "type" that is winning for that particular judge, your dog just won't do well.

If a championship is to indicate that the dog is of quality, then the dogs that earn that championship should meet the breed standard and also show that they have the proper intelligence, instincts and physical soundness that is required for the breed. When they start making a championship earned only when a dog has been medically shown to be sound, and they insist on temperament testing and testing for intelligence and workability (specific to each breed, of course) then I will respect the concept of championship more. And when they set it up that the judges have to follow a particular guideline that takes away so much of the bias, then the championship will truly begin to mean something.

I am appalled to see a "champion" German shepherd win best of breed when it can't even circle the ring without tripping due to over angulation.

I am appalled to see a chow get a championship when it is so overdone that you can barely see the eyes and it gasps for breath as it tries to go around the ring.

But these situations both happen, and happen too often.

A dog should be assessed for being "proper" as to breed standard. But the championship is not necessarily the right assessment of that. When dogs that are so extreme are considered champions, it just destroys any respect many people have for the title.

I may or may not get a championship on my chow bitch. She's a beautiful girl, fits the breed standard but is not on the heavier side of the standard. The more experienced breed people have assessed her and find her to be well worth breeding (in fact I have been offered frozen semen from a BIS chow who took multiple group 1's from a breeder who just loves my girl and thinks she would be an excellent breeding prospect). I will have her critiqued by judges at an international show - they will give written critiques (something the AKC doesn't do - what a failing that is!). And I will show her in obedience, test her in herding on sheep, and work her in agility and tracking. I'll get her x-rays and eyes certified and thyroid checked. And then I'll decide if she's worth breeding.

A champion title will not make the decision for me. There are more important things to spend my time and money on when it comes to my dogs than to get a championship - if I do it, I do it. But since I can't get majors here in Alaska it's kind of a moot point. Traveling to the lower 48 for AKC conformation shows is just plain a waste of money to me.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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  #32  
Old 03-21-2006, 06:39 PM
solidstaffs solidstaffs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doberkim
solidstaffs and moe, what do you suggest people look for when determining who should be bred?
First of all the dog should be health tested for every necessary test for that breed. If it is not then breeding shouldn't be considerd whether it's a CH show dog OR a non show dog. It should be of good temperment. To be honest pretty much the same as Moe has said. Previous litters would also be a factor.

If you are going to breed you should have some idea of what you are trying to produce. Therefor should KNOW what is a good dog without it needing to have a CH before it's name. The dogs you are breeding from should compliment eachothers faults. By going to shows and deciding that's where you will find your dogs mate is narrowing your search, and limiting your chances of breeding quality pups. The RIGHT dog for your bitch might not be a show dog. Dont fool yourselves into thinking that the only good dogs are show dogs because this isn't the case.

The right dog to match yours is the one that best suits his/her faults, not the one that has the most Champions in it's pedigree.

Any fool can mtch one dog to another by counting CH in the line. To breed 2 dogs that REALLY compliment eachother and produce quality pups regardless of "show history" is obviously a little harder. In my opinion what makes a good breeder is, someone who knows and understands what makes a good dog, without needing a judges opinion. That's not to say that i think CH shouldn't be bred from, and i'm not aginst the "show world".

I suppose my whole point is.......... There is more to EVERY breed than what you see in a show ring. The dog that would best compliment your bitch could be 2 doors up, sitting by the fire and never stepped foot in the ring. Dont assume that just because a dog has been made up, it will produce good pups or compliment your dog. It might have produced a fantastic litter with another dog (With a mate who complimented eachother) But produce average pups with your dog (Because they didn't compliment eachother)

I'm sorry if that didn't make any sense, it wasn't aimed at anyone. I just dont believe in breeding CH to CH just because they are both Champions.
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  #33  
Old 03-22-2006, 02:38 AM
moe moe is offline
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Good posts Melanie and solidstaffs.

Mo
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  #34  
Old 03-22-2006, 10:59 AM
RedyreRottweilers
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I am awfully AWFULLY proud of the 9 owner handled points I have put on my bitch.

I will be IMMENSELY PROUD when I finish her CH title.

I do not know judges, I don't pad entries, and I don't show to judges who judge anything except dogs.

Melanie, I agree with the vast majority of what you post, but my O/H CH title on this bitch will be a HUGE accomplishment to me.

I could agree that AKC needs reform, but I blame the breeders who bring these extremes to the ring almost as much as the judges who award them.

I"m sure you did not intend to make me feel as tho my hard work and (important to me) wins are meaningless and insignificant.

They sure aren't to me.

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  #35  
Old 03-22-2006, 12:05 PM
moe moe is offline
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Red, there was no way that I was trying to cheapen all your hard work whatsoever, I would also be very proud to make a CH up if I could, this discussion was not about that,in fact it has totally changed from the original post I think. the conversation has digressed because the impression was that you should ONLY breed from CH's, which a few of us feel that just because a dog is a CH does not guarantee that it is a great producer. please do not take a personal offence, because someone's opinion differs from yours. we are all adults here and should be able to have a discussion without it turning personal.

Mo
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  #36  
Old 03-22-2006, 12:42 PM
solidstaffs solidstaffs is offline
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Hi,

If it seems as though i was devaluing your achievements, i'm sorry I didn't mean to.

I was just trying to make the point that just because a dog has been made up it doesn't mean it will be a good producer. There need sto be more to a breeding programme than just CH

Again please accept my apologies if what i said devalued your dogs achievements
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  #37  
Old 03-22-2006, 01:54 PM
RedyreRottweilers
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I don't think any apologies are needed.

It's been a good discussion.

I just wanted to "split hairs" with Melanie (IliamnasQuest).

I'm sure she did not mean her post to insinuate that NO CHs are worthy of the title. But there are plenty of them out there who are finished that I would not tough with a 10 foot pole as far as breeding.

I've worked very hard to get this far with my girl, and hoping for finishing her this weekend!

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  #38  
Old 03-22-2006, 05:21 PM
moe moe is offline
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Well good luck for this weekend, we will be rooting for you

Mo
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  #39  
Old 03-22-2006, 05:51 PM
IliamnasQuest IliamnasQuest is offline
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RedyreRottweilers, no one can make you feel one way or the other about your dog's titles unless you let them. If you will feel immensely proud about your title, then why does it matter what I may think? You're not doing any of the things I said are done, so you are working on getting an honest title on your dog. Of course you should be proud of it.

I gave my personal assessment of the AKC. In all honesty, if my bitch earns a CH title then I have to credit her breeder more than anything else. I handle my own dog too and will continue to put her in an occasional conformation class (more if we ever get majors up here). I would be proud of earning any title on her because it takes time and commitment on my part. But I still feel that the AKC championship is set up more to earn money for AKC than to truly assess the "value" of a dog.

But as far as my thoughts towards your dog - I will be far more impressed when you put a herding title on her or a CDX or an NA or a SchI or when she actively works as a therapy dog. I'm far more impressed with dogs that earn titles that show their working ability, intelligence and temperament than I am with any "champion" title. I think it's a travesty that so many are breeding for certain physical attributes while ignoring temperament, intelligence and instincts. I'm NOT saying you'd do that, but so many are. As long as their dogs have a CH in front of the name, there's an assumption that they're quality. I just haven't found that to be entirely true. And, of course, there ARE champions who are worthy of the title. Of course there are. But as long as the champion title is based nearly entirely on looks, it will never hold as much importance to me as it does for so many others.

I've been competing in performance events for 17 years now. I have nearly 30 working titles on my dogs (not counting CGC's and HIC's). I have a pretty good feel for how a dog works and the qualities required to be a working dog. And there are SO many champions out there who can't do a simple CD, let alone what they were originally bred for. Most of the breed standards I've seen have something to the effect of "always keeping in mind what the breed was originally bred for" and yet these dogs often have a lack of workability and sometimes very poor temperament and yet - because of the "CH" in front of their name - they're considered quality.

I do hope you plan to go on and do other activities with your bitch. A working rottweiler is absolutely gorgeous! And it's a breed with so much potential. When you have a CH in front of her name and working titles after her name, I will truly be impressed.

Just my honest opinion.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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  #40  
Old 03-22-2006, 07:06 PM
RedyreRottweilers
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I agree with you absolutely on the performance aspect, Melanie, and we also really agree on the conformation part. When I show dogs in breed, I want an HONEST evaluation from a person who knows my breed.

I am so DELIGHTED with this young bitch's working ethics, attitude, and ability. She is cheerfully retrieving, and just last night took the correct article from a pile of 4 metal ones.

Her heeling is lovely. I"m going to have a lot of fun with her.



She is practically ready for Rally, and I expect by the end of the year we will be close to ready to blow through the regular titles one right behind the other right to her UD.

Depending on plans to Special her, or breedings, I would love to put a UDX on her as well, and we will continue to study herding, tracking, and carting.

Got no use around here for a dog who does not have a brain and who is willing to use it and work with and for me.

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