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  #31  
Old 03-05-2006, 04:59 PM
keller keller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joce
If you failed to notice the guide dog group that started the breeding gave it up because it DID NOT WORK! It actually failed miserably. they would put moeny into training the dog and it would turn out no better than a furry lab.
Okay, so how long, in general, does it take to get a mix to breed true? So the Assoc. for the blind abandoned its program. That automatically means that an allergy friendly lab is impossible to create? If you failed to notice, I said that other people have picked up the movement. The seeing eye program was just one of the first.

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Its all a gimmick and you should not buy a dog based on a gimmick.
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  #32  
Old 03-05-2006, 06:28 PM
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JennSLK JennSLK is offline
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Okay, and what's so horrible about people making puggles?
The problem is, is that there are enough dogs in the shelters and on the streets with out PERPOSLY creating another mutt. They are a fad. Not to mention who would pay $1200+ for a mix?

Now, dont get me wrong. I love mutts, but the perpose of the CKC/AKC is to preserve and make better the quality of the pure breds. Yes that didnt make sence, but you know what I mean.

Shows are for PURE BREDS, to be judged on the standard. Mutts have no standard, and there fore should NOT be regestered.
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  #33  
Old 03-05-2006, 07:32 PM
keller keller is offline
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Someone, maybe it was you, made those same points before, and I responded to them in this thread, so I won't type it out again. If people disagree with my points, then okay, but none of us are gaining anything by saying the same stuff in every post.

There's no sense in all of us wasting our time repeating the same thing over and over again for four more pages. If the current discussion is any indication of what's to come, then we're not going to get anywhere with this. When I first responded to this thread, I asked for some facts about the harm that a responsible breeder (you'll find my definition of this in my other posts in this thread) was doing by breeding a mix.

You'll all have to forgive me if I don't respond to your opinions about whether or not I should buy a mixed breed dog, whether or not we should make new breeds, whether they're cute, or a fad, or a gimmick or whether a person can breed mutts without being a byb. I'm not trying to be rude, or ignoring any of you, but I just don't have any interest in going around and around in circles on people's opinions on this subject.
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  #34  
Old 03-05-2006, 08:18 PM
Melissa_W Melissa_W is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keller
Okay, so how long, in general, does it take to get a mix to breed true? So the Assoc. for the blind abandoned its program. That automatically means that an allergy friendly lab is impossible to create? If you failed to notice, I said that other people have picked up the movement. The seeing eye program was just one of the first.




It would take a huge number of generations to develop a true breeding hybrid.

I will use slides from my molecular genetics class to show you what I mean. The slides show true breeding tall and true breeding dwarf pea plants, but it's the exact same idea with dogs. My instructor cited puggles in class as another example.


P1 is the parental generation. So this would be your golden and your poodle.


The F1 generation is your "doodle". The doodle is of an intermediate appearence. But when you cross two doodles in the F2 generation, you get this:


A continuous spectrum of physical characteristics ranging from the extreme case where you have a dog that looks like a golden, to the other extreme where the dog looks like a poodle. And you've got everything in between. Your doodle would be exactly in the center, assuming you were shooting for the intermediate phenotype. I can't even imagine how many years of selective breeding it would take to develop a true breeding intermediate. Maybe one of the breeders on the forum would know. But the point is, it would take quite some time.
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  #35  
Old 03-05-2006, 08:33 PM
amymarley amymarley is offline
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Almost everyone here, that knows me, or my stance on breeding, knows, that I don't like any of it. Yes, I know there are good breeders out there... so to those of you, please don't take this personally.

Bottom line....for the most part, there are way too may dogs/cats etc...out there, over 7 million getting put down each year, purebreeds (yes, from breeders) and others...

My hope, my stance, is to stop it ALL and then when dogs/cats are stopped getting injected....killed, is when to start the population again. I have seen/spoke to many breeders here and other places, but they still breed. It is their right.... although I don't agree, it IS THEIR RIGHT. The bottom line is, most people who really care about dogs, post here, the OTHERS....we will never get through too.
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  #36  
Old 03-05-2006, 08:51 PM
keller keller is offline
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Melissa_W, thanks for posting that. I'm very familiar with genetics (no specific knowledge for dogs, but I understand the subject, and evolution well) so I know that such a thing would take quite awhile, and many generations. This was what I wanted to get across to the person who wanted to label the program a failure when the movement is still new (from a genetic standpoint).

animalbiz, at least you're consistent.
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  #37  
Old 03-06-2006, 08:04 AM
B33CPE B33CPE is offline
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The reason i have a problem with this is because the people breeding doodle dogs arent trying to make a new breed, all they want is to make some money. I cant believe that the public is so brainwashed that they would pay such large ammounts of money to buy a mutt, seriously there is already enough breeds of dogs anyway, hundreds, there is one to suit everybodys needs. Another thing that bothers me is its a trend or a fad, there is no carefull planning or genetic research going on, these are people who will breed their poodle with any other breed of dog just so they can call it a doodle, and apparently
Doodle= $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

However, i am totally about "for the love of the purebred dog" , Dont get me wrong i love mutts too, i have one in fact.

I talked to my inlaws again last night and they said something about breeding their lab to a poodle in May-June, oooohh it makes me mad. But im in no place to tell them what to do, and they are the type of people who think they know everything. This really makes me mad because their lab is the daughter to my old male lab i had, he died of old age last year. He was very well bred, had champions and field winners in his pedigree, and was very beautiful and had a calm temperment, and all his daughters turned out like him, now they want to degrade his gene pool by throwing any old poodle in. ugh. Just because they think they will sell for 1200.00 and "oooh they're so cute."

I know that nothing i say is going to change anyones mind about buying one of these dogs, you either get it or you dont. I am not trying to start an argument, just venting.

Thanks to all the responsible breeders.
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  #38  
Old 03-06-2006, 08:49 AM
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shepluvr shepluvr is offline
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sorry boo boo
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Last edited by shepluvr; 03-06-2006 at 09:10 AM.
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  #39  
Old 03-06-2006, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keller
...and what do we and the dogs lose when someone makes a doodle litter instead, after having tested the parents, interviewed homes, offered health contracts that give refunds on dogs with genetic problems, take back the dogs that they've bred with no questions asked etc?
The stark reality of it is that the vast majority who are breeding these litters are NOT doing that. They are in it for the money. It really saddens me to see the public falling for this fad. They are buying these mix breeds for assinine amounts of money, when the same breed types are dying in shelters across the country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keller
A person who places their dogs into the best homes, and will take them back if they lose that home has not added any dogs to the local shelter.
That is true except for the fact that it takes away a home for a dog in a shelter.
This fad didn't necessarily start out with the program by the seeing eye either. It came from accidental breedings, who the people who owned the dogs came up with a cute name to make them sound more legit and to justify charging money for it because they were making a "new breed". It was happening many years ago in puppymills across the country.

There was one breeder I know of who bred pekes and shihtzus. She never kept her dogs confined. When they had a litter, she just looked at the pups and if they looked like pekes, they were called pekes. If they looked like shih tzus, she called them shih tzus. If they looked like a mix of both..BOOM! They were shih pekes! and they sold for more than the supposed purebred ones!
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  #40  
Old 03-06-2006, 09:36 AM
keller keller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shepluvr
The stark reality of it is that the vast majority who are breeding these litters are NOT doing that. They are in it for the money. It really saddens me to see the public falling for this fad. They are buying these mix breeds for assinine amounts of money, when the same breed types are dying in shelters across the country.
The fact that there are so many shelter dogs (pure and mixed) makes me feel quite comforatable believing that the majority of breeders breeding ANY kind of litter aren't doing that. Folks who take responsibility for the dogs they breed (pure or mixed) are the exception to the rule. There are purebreds dying in shelters too. Should we take animalbiz's advice and halt breeding all together for awhile?

Quote:
That is true except for the fact that it takes away a home for a dog in a shelter.
This fad didn't necessarily start out with the program by the seeing eye either. It came from accidental breedings, who the people who owned the dogs came up with a cute name to make them sound more legit and to justify charging money for it because they were making a "new breed". It was happening many years ago in puppymills across the country.
The seeing eye program was one of the first movements to start a program with a specific purpose that got the ball rolling. Just because someone is willing to give a home to a new puppy from a breeder doesn't mean that they would also take a shelter dog. I feel for the animals that are dying in the shelter, but at this point in time, my home is only open to certain animals. It's that way for a lot of people. Every purebred litter born takes away a home for a purebred shelter dog too. Do you agree with animalbiz, or is it okay to make more purebreds?

Really, if we want to keep going with this kind of thought process (I'll admit that this is stretching it really far), shouldn't people stop having kids and take in the ones that need homes? Every planned child who is born, is taking away a home that could go to a foster child. Or maybe people should be trusted to make their own choices about the people, and pets that will be part of their family, and the rest of us should stop assuming that we know better, and that they've been duped.
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