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  #21  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Linds View Post
I've also thought "Bettering the breed" sounds good until you really think about it.

When/if I breed I won't be thinking "I'm bettering the breed!". I'll be thinking about trying to create some awesome little puppies that will go on to fill the niche they were created for whether that be sport, pet, or work. I don't think I'm making it better or worse.

I mean, breeds change. They were created to fill a need and that need changes as years go by. Some work becomes obsolete for most of the world and other needs emerge. And I'm ok with that. I thin it's sad that it happens and the nostalgic part of me does want them to always stay the same but I think that's naive in the long run. Times change and new voids pop up. Like sport.

So to me it doesn't have anything to do with bettering or worsening the breed. It's just changing with times and breeding what you see as something that is wanted. Doesn't mean people can't still breed for the jobs the dog was created for. Though, it's getting harder and harder since most people don't use their herding dog for day to day life work on the ranch. And to me, herding trials are sport, no more, no less.
Basically this.

and I didn't want to sound selfish but yea..
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Originally Posted by elegy View Post
And I don't remotely care whether or not my puppies' parents can move sheep, though the breeder I chose does work her dogs on sheep. It is completely non-applicable to my life. I want a structurally sound, health-tested dog with temperament and drive that coincides with what I want/like and who is going to be interested in playing the games that I want to play.
So yea, maybe those kinds of breeders aren't "bettering the breed" by the technical definition.
but I still think many of them are producing awesome dogs that do extremely well in homes.
Which in my eyes is more important.
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  #22  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Fran101 View Post

So yea, maybe those kinds of breeders aren't "bettering the breed" by the technical definition.
but I still think many of them are producing awesome dogs that do extremely well in homes.
Which in my eyes is more important.
Also, I hope I don't get flamed for this because its really meant in a nice way, but I remember you specifically (and other people have said it as well) that you weren't particularly set on an Aussie when you started looking for pups, you found a BREEDER you loved, and went from there - which is awesome, and totally the way to go for your intents & purposes for your pup.

I think my (slightly snobby but I don't mean for it to be) viewpoint comes from the fact that if I get a pup I want a PLOTT - not necessarily the best pet, I wouldn't need it to be a service dog, if we never get an obedience title ill live, etc - I want the best PLOTT HOUND I can get, and THAT is entirely different than just a good dog, I think... I wouldn't ask most people to live with a lot of nice Plotts
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  #23  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:45 PM
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You bet herding trials are a sport wont get any argument from me there! There is absolutely nothing about a typical A, B, C, D, ect type course that even remotely replicates a days work for an actual working farm dog. Tho the same base instinct is required to do both and that's the only real connection and a working farm dog needs something more than what it takes to complete a typical herding course. Now when it comes to the Farm and Ranch trials things get much MUCH more realistic. I am lucky in that my mentor is a beef farmer who actually uses a couple of her dogs as active working members of her beef farm, one of those dogs happens to be the mother of one of my dogs. I get to see the use that these dogs have that is still needed in today's world.
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  #24  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:59 PM
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Also, I hope I don't get flamed for this because its really meant in a nice way, but I remember you specifically (and other people have said it as well) that you weren't particularly set on an Aussie when you started looking for pups, you found a BREEDER you loved, and went from there - which is awesome, and totally the way to go for your intents & purposes for your pup.

I think my (slightly snobby but I don't mean for it to be) viewpoint comes from the fact that if I get a pup I want a PLOTT - not necessarily the best pet, I wouldn't need it to be a service dog, if we never get an obedience title ill live, etc - I want the best PLOTT HOUND I can get, and THAT is entirely different than just a good dog, I think... I wouldn't ask most people to live with a lot of nice Plotts
I think that's really true. Lol no flame needed.
I was looking for a good dog for ME..a puppy who would grow into what I wanted in a dog.. not a specific breed I wanted because of my love for that specific breed so of course my views are different from someone who wanted a dog of a specific breed just because they love that breed and want the most breediest (lol that totally isn't a word) of that breed.

If I found the breeder I did and she had the same type of dogs with the same drive to learn and work, amazing temperaments, great health, and versatility she breeds and works for.
except they were labs..or collies.. or great danes.
I would have a lab or collie or great dane
well maybe not a great dane..that dog would take up my whole apartment

the fact that she worked her dogs/pups on sheep and ducks was really just an added extra.
and a very very cute puppy/duck video I got to watch lol but didn't really weigh much in the grand scheme of things.
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  #25  
Old 12-08-2012, 05:49 PM
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I have zero issue with sport breeders, whether they are breeding a purebred with the drives and structure desired for sport, or if they are crossing breeds. Health test, breed dogs who excel in the sport you are breeding for, and make sure they get into the right homes, and I'm satisfied. And if they are super cute border/staffy or border/stack puppies, call me
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  #26  
Old 12-08-2012, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Linds View Post
I'm perfectly ok with it. I mean, I don't think every sport breeder is ethical or someone I would go to but the idea of breeding for sport doesn't bother me in the least.

I would say I prefer them to be structurally sound and have a solid temperament. But I also understand what someone that wants to be competitive sees as a solid temperament might vary from the person who wants a good all around pet.

So pretty much, I have no issue with breeding for sport as long as the same care is given as breeding for anything else. I also don't have an issue with breeding crosses for sport.
Pretty much this.

I don't think someone breeding specifically for one sport only is any different than someone breeding for confo only. Honestly, I don't think I'd buy from such a breeder though, I'd want a little more diversity in the titles, especially if it was a sport that had nothing to do with the breed's orignal function. For example, I'd more likely buy a lab pup from a breeder that bred for hunt test dogs only than one that bred for agility dogs only (assuming all other things like health and temperament are equal).

For me part of what I love about labs is the "OMG--must run and swim and retrieve stuff!!! Any stuff!!!" drive, so I would want any lab I got from a breeder to have plenty of that in his background.

So I guess while I don't have an ethical issue with that sort of breeder, I likely wouldn't get a pup from them either.
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  #27  
Old 12-08-2012, 07:49 PM
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Meh. LOL. Why is it so difficult? Every breed will have different breeders, I don't think that's bad.

I don't have a problem with sport breeders. Does it make me think twice for a minute about the type of dog a person is getting when they say they're getting a herding breed (take Aussie/BC for general purposes right now) and all the breeder's dogs do is run back and forth in flyball? Yeah, some. Because, if the Border Collie breed's temperament is based on those dogs working stock, what does that mean when all they do is chase balls?

That might not even make sense? I don't know. But it's an interesting thing to think on. And it goes for any sport, whether agility, dock diving, flyball, frisbee, etc, with any breed.

I guess in my head it's sort of like if the Border Collie kept being bred for flyball, way down the years, what will make it much different than, say, a Poodle being breed for flyball? Will they still be different in temperament or will they become more similar?
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  #28  
Old 12-09-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Lizmo View Post
I guess in my head it's sort of like if the Border Collie kept being bred for flyball, way down the years, what will make it much different than, say, a Poodle being breed for flyball? Will they still be different in temperament or will they become more similar?
I don't know, look at all the breeds that were created for almost the same job. Retrievers, herders, sighthounds etc. They all have different characteristics, though there are many similarities. And yes, the job, terrain might have varied but not to an extreme degree in most cases I think and yet you have many breeds with close backgrounds, similar jobs but very different looks and temperaments.

I've also got to think that the breeder who is breeding for sport got into the breed because they LIKE that breed. They might be breeding for a better competitive dog but at the end of the day they still love the breed, the temperament and the personality.
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  #29  
Old 12-09-2012, 04:51 PM
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I'll get the dog I want, from a breeder producing dogs that I like. I don't care what the breeder labels themselves (or gets labeled) as.
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  #30  
Old 12-09-2012, 06:00 PM
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I don't have a problem with it. Every breed has different niches that they fill. Look at the divide among the GSD. You have your sport,show and working breeders then you have the inbetweeners who produce versatile dogs as they should be.

Judge's breeder breeds primarily for working k9 dogs. Whether it is detection,single purpose or dual purpose etc. She doesn't title some of her dogs anymore due to her health and age, however she does have them tested and all are trained. The brokers that buy her puppies aren't interested in titles, they are interested in how the parents work and what's behind them.

When I'm looking for a GSD I'm looking for something completely different than others and vice versa. So, with the variance in breed's purposes changing so much, I have no problem with a breeder picking a niche and breeding for it.
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