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  #11  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Fran101 View Post
It's not possible for all breeders (cities, less and less places with sheep, time constraints, other interests etc..) and frankly, come on.. how much of a joke are most of those instinct tests anyway? Chasing sheep? YOU PASS! and how many homes these days are going to be working sheep?
Frankly chasing sheep is all I would really expect from most young dogs, it's the ones who are afraid of the stock or lay down in a corner and go to sleep that need to be weeded out not the young dogs who are overly excited about seeing sheep. Does an instinct test mean they will make a perfect herding dog? No, but it is something.
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  #12  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:16 PM
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They should make sure to make no claims that they are breeding "to better the breed" either cause they are not.
Guess that would depend on your definition of bettering the breed. I would say breeding puppies that grow up to make excellent pets, service dogs, agility dogs, flyball dogs etc..with great temperaments and good health IS bettering the breed. But hey, that's just me.

Lol I am by no means an expert.. I'm just saying I certainly wouldn't vilify a breeder just for not working their herding dogs on sheep. The world is changing.. as is the pet dog and what people are breeding for. Not everyone has access to sheep and I wouldn't expect every breeder to trek out to goodness knows where to find some.

I am certainly not going to have some crazy BC Board type argument over this lol then again.. *GASP* I have no problem with show breeders either so I guess that says something.

I am NOT saying that herding instincts and being able to herd is useless at all.
I'm just saying that I don't see the need to vilify breeders that don't work their dogs on sheep. It's not possible to some and frankly, it just isn't on my list of things that make a breeder responsible.
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  #13  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:19 PM
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I just want to put this out there that in order to instinct test my dogs I have to drive 5 hours one way so it's definitely not easy or cheap for me to do what I do in case you were thinking I lived on a farm lol
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:26 PM
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I only look at health, temperament, and drive. If they have what I'm looking for, I don't care what they say they're breeding for I can pretty much train any dog that has the temp and drive I want to do whatever I want.
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:26 PM
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I won't vilify any breeder, but I certainly agree that if you claim to be bettering the breed, you're going to try to keep them true to what they were originally meant for. I would not buy a hound from a breeder who didn't hunt them at least enough to make sure they could. I would certainly buy pups out of parents who weren't titled in the woods, but I want to know that they have been in the woods, successfully. I am quite passionate about this subject because I feel like if we start moving away from all that, because "the pet world/market is changing", what's going to truly set them apart as breeds anymore?
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  #16  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:28 PM
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I've also thought "Bettering the breed" sounds good until you really think about it.

When/if I breed I won't be thinking "I'm bettering the breed!". I'll be thinking about trying to create some awesome little puppies that will go on to fill the niche they were created for whether that be sport, pet, or work. I don't think I'm making it better or worse.

I mean, breeds change. They were created to fill a need and that need changes as years go by. Some work becomes obsolete for most of the world and other needs emerge. And I'm ok with that. I thin it's sad that it happens and the nostalgic part of me does want them to always stay the same but I think that's naive in the long run. Times change and new voids pop up. Like sport.

So to me it doesn't have anything to do with bettering or worsening the breed. It's just changing with times and breeding what you see as something that is wanted. Doesn't mean people can't still breed for the jobs the dog was created for. Though, it's getting harder and harder since most people don't use their herding dog for day to day life work on the ranch. And to me, herding trials are sport, no more, no less.
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  #17  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keechak View Post
I just want to put this out there that in order to instinct test my dogs I have to drive 5 hours one way so it's definitely not easy or cheap for me to do what I do in case you were thinking I lived on a farm lol
because it's something that's important to you. And that's great.

I'm just saying I wouldn't blame a breeder, who was more interested in flyball then he/she was herding, to go 5 hours to a flyball tournament instead of going to work their dogs on sheep.

Don't get me wrong. I love the fact that my breeder works her dogs on sheep.. I love the versatility involved ..and I thought it was adorable seeing my puppy face the ducks. and I like the basic idea that they have the drive to do what they were bred to do originally.

But, just saying.. of all the wonderful things I think make a responsible good breeder.. FOR ME, sheep aren't a huge part of that.
I am much more interested in how the natural drive is molded towards other things and how it's versatility shines through in other aspects. Drive in flyball dogs and steady focus for obedience dogs etc..etc..

Bettering the breed in your eyes or no..I was much more interested in how these puppies would fit different lives and homes and proving their versatility than I was of them being able to actually work sheep.

again..just my 2 cents.
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  #18  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Fran101 View Post
Guess that would depend on your definition of bettering the breed.
Since a breed is defined by it's breed standard it stands to reason that breeding to that standard is part of it.

Now that's not to say that a dog has to be a member of a "breed" to be bred, I am all for breeding sport mixes and landraces as long as the proper health testing is being done puppies placed in proper homes and breeders being clear about what they are attempting to produce.
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  #19  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:31 PM
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I bought my dogs from a sport breeder, so obviously I don't have issues with it. There are good sport breeders, there are lousy sport breeders.

And I don't remotely care whether or not my puppies' parents can move sheep, though the breeder I chose does work her dogs on sheep. It is completely non-applicable to my life. I want a structurally sound, health-tested dog with temperament and drive that coincides with what I want/like and who is going to be interested in playing the games that I want to play.
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  #20  
Old 12-08-2012, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by PlottMom View Post
I won't vilify any breeder, but I certainly agree that if you claim to be bettering the breed, you're going to try to keep them true to what they were originally meant for. I would not buy a hound from a breeder who didn't hunt them at least enough to make sure they could. I would certainly buy pups out of parents who weren't titled in the woods, but I want to know that they have been in the woods, successfully. I am quite passionate about this subject because I feel like if we start moving away from all that, because "the pet world/market is changing", what's going to truly set them apart as breeds anymore?
This, exactly.

I don't necessarily mind moving away from the original intent. But do NOT call those dogs the same as the dogs bred for original intent. There should be clear lines dividing them, and those who move away from the original breed shouldn't be piggy backing on everyone else's hard work and screwing it up.

Get your own circle to run your dogs in, and call them what they are. That's part of the honesty as well.
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