Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dogs - General Dog Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 12-02-2012, 06:57 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is online now
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,036
Default

Romy, nobody could not have said it any better. Excellent, excellent post! Not only about the evaluations, but the pitties too.

Honestly, too often people trying to train bully breeds to be service dogs are doing it ONLY for the PR. They aren't the ones using the service dogs, they're only wanting the dogs to get a good reputation. I was SO frustrated when I was trying to find a service dog candidate, and for every realistic suggestion I got at least one "Go to the shelter and pick out a pit bull, they make great service dogs!" Um, no. First off, any pit bull that even remotely fits the breed standards is going to be too short for my needs. That alone is reason enough for me to not use a bully breed. I've also heard horror stories of people traveling to areas with pit bull bans with their pit bull SDs and having them confiscated and destroyed - and only later do authorities ask questions. By that time it's too late, the dog's gone. It doesn't matter if the dog was the best SD that ever existed, it's gone now. Many people are also trying to claim their pets as SDs to get around breed bans.

I know some pit bulls make excellent service dogs. I've met multiple ones myself. But I, personally, don't want to take the risk for a breed that doesn't even fit my needs for a service dog just by virtue of its size. I can't think poorly of anyone else who also chooses to forego that hassle.


Quote:
I wouldn't say 1/1000, or even 1/100. If you're good at evaluating, and you're good at training, far more than that will make the cut.
This is a bit of a rehash, but if you're good at evaluating, that's not even half the battle. After the dogs are out of the shelter and into homes, many more will wash out as real temperaments come out, many will come up with health problems, and many will be unsuitable for work for other reasons. I know one SD who nearly washed out due to severe allergies - and that dog may still wash out, depending on how treatment goes. Gavroche washed out initially because he has very mild hip dysplasia, and later on when his thyroid function dropped he developed temperament issues - those issues are now sorted out enough for him to be an excellent pet and to compete now and then, but his temperament is no longer even close to being service-dog quality.

So, you might take more than 1/100 out of the shelter to be candidates, but I doubt you'd have a 100% success rate with the selected dogs. I believe the 1/1000 number comes from how many dogs in the shelter would make it all the way to being an SD - including the ones that are not even considered as candidates.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:01 PM
CatStina CatStina is offline
SBT Lover!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 634
Default

Romy,

1. Did you read my whole comment? My comment was about why I think this program is a bad idea.

2. My dog is in training to be my service dog. He is a breed which some people mistake for a Pit Bull. He is extremely well suited for the tasks he is being trained to do. If I still need a SD when Saxon is retired, I will have an other Staffordshire Bull Terrier or I may even have a Pit Bull.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:04 PM
Romy's Avatar
Romy Romy is offline
Taxiderpy
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 10,038
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatStina View Post
Romy,

1. Did you read my whole comment? My comment was about why I think this program is a bad idea.

2. My dog is in training to be my service dog. He is a breed which some people mistake for a Pit Bull. He is extremely well suited for the tasks he is being trained to do. If I still need a SD when Saxon is retired, I will have an other Staffordshire Bull Terrier or I may even have a Pit Bull.
Oh! I was agreeing with your whole comment. Sorry if it seemed like I wasn't. Didn't get much sleep last night so probably should have quoted more. That was mostly for anybody who thinks SD pits should be pursued because it's great press for the breed.

ETA: And good luck with him! I really wish the public perception was better, because overall there are a lot of good candidates within the bully breeds.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:07 PM
Julee's Avatar
Julee Julee is online now
dogstrong
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Kent, CT
Posts: 3,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post
When you have to take into account:

Health. The dog can't have any orthopedic or other major health problems and needs to be screened for them before training starts. If something crops up in the meantime that can't be screened for ahead of time (like epilepsy) the dog has to be washed.

Temperament. The dog has to be rock solid stable. It can't flip out at at gunshots and fireworks, umbrellas opening suddenly, be reactive or aggressive to other dogs, animals, or people, cars, motorcycles starting suddenly, etc. etc. etc.

Working ability. Some dogs are able to work. They just don't want to. They're not reliable, and when the handlers' LIFE is depending on how reliable an animal is, it's critical.

Socialization.
If you get a dog from a shelter, you have a crapshoot as far as how socialized it was. The major window of socialization is 8-15 weeks. Miss that, and you can correct it to a degree which is usually fine for a companion dog, but NOT for a dog whose handler's life depends on it. Sometimes you get really lucky and find a well socialized rescue. Sometimes you find puppies.

The crapshoot part with puppies is they could have joint and other debillitating health issues that can't even be screen for until they're two. So... do you invest two years of training and risk the dog washing for health reasons?

Honesty. This is a HUGE one, and really pretty rare. An honest dog is the dog who will never ever eat a steak laying on the floor, because it's not his. He'll never sneak food from his blind handler's plate. He has flawless OOS down/stays because he won't deviate from what he's been trained, no matter now unsupervised he is.

Now, how many dogs in shelters are free of ALL those issues. This isn't just a cutesy feel good way of getting dogs homes and helping people with disabilities. Service dog handlers' lives depend on the reliability of their partners, the stability of their partners, the quality of their partners training, and the stability of their physical health

I would have no problem with any rescue contacting experienced SD training orgs and bringing dogs in for them to assess and take to be trained by experienced trainers.

I do not know of ANY rescue that is also equipped to train SDs. It takes a HUGE amount of resources and a totally different skillset than rescue does.

I'm aware of what goes into the selecting, training, and working of a service dog. I work one and train them myself.


If the 1/1000 figure was for every dog in a shelter ever, then yes, it's probably more accurate, lol. I thought you were saying it was 1/1000 evaluated.
__________________
What I need, Dog becomes.
Dog is great. Dog is good. Dog is everything.




Equinox Shadow Of A Hero CGC "Shadow"
Equinox Ain't No Rest For The Wicked CGC "Embyr"
Equinox Play Me Some Mountain Music "Copper"
Equinox Don't Feed It After Midnight "Bloo"
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:09 PM
Romy's Avatar
Romy Romy is offline
Taxiderpy
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 10,038
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julee View Post
I'm aware of what goes into the selecting, training, and working of a service dog. I work one and train them myself.


If the 1/1000 figure was for every dog in a shelter ever, then yes, it's probably more accurate, lol. I thought you were saying it was 1/1000 evaluated.
I might be remembering her post wrong, but I'm pretty sure she said 1/1000 evaluated.

Just the health screening would wipe out most potential candidates right there. The BYB dog gene pool that makes up the majority of shelter dogs isn't known for their health testing.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:09 PM
CatStina CatStina is offline
SBT Lover!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 634
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post
Oh! I was agreeing with your whole comment. Sorry if it seemed like I wasn't. Didn't get much sleep last night so probably should have quoted more. That was mostly for anybody who thinks SD pits should be pursued because it's great press for the breed.

ETA: And good luck with him! I really wish the public perception was better, because overall there are a lot of good candidates within the bully breeds.
I had a long day and am really tired, sorry that I misread the tone of what you wrote!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:13 PM
crazedACD crazedACD is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: MA
Posts: 2,907
Default

They haven't put basic manners and training on the general population of their dogs...why make the jump to service dogs?? Very strange, I wonder who is doing the training.

I watch the show and I am on the fence with my opinion of them, but it's pretty glaring to me the dogs lack training. Their volunteers run the dogs out and let them pull all over and only when someone is interested in a dog do they evaluate it for things like DA. Seems to me if you want to adopt more dogs out, put some time in manners and not pulling on the leash.

Not saying Best Friends is the best place either, but they have small apartments that volunteers can use to house train and evaluate dogs.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:15 PM
AdrianneIsabel's Avatar
AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
Glutton for Crazy
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,893
Default

Again I think that was a wonderful post Romy. The point is not directed at the few people who choose to train their pit bulls to be ESA or SD but more over the fact of the society we live in.

GD used to breed Shepherds in addition to the labs and goldens. They even tried out raising an accidental malinois/gsd litter, unfortunately none panned out. They did, however, get out of the GSD mostly because "we live in a different world, now".

The point is Romy is right, some people choose to have a SD but most already have an uphill battle enough and like it or not "dangerous" breeds often make life harder.
__________________
Sloan von Krigbaum IPO1 CGC BH CD NA NJ PD MJ-N RATI RATN 3/7/10 -
Shamoo NJ-N RATI RATN 3/1/98 -
Phelan du Loups du Soleil CGC RATI 6/15/13 -
Chili Brigades Brover 5/23/14 -

Arnold CGC TDI FD 6/29/04 - 07/05/13
Backup CGC HIC CD SRD SJ-N RATI 12/29/09 - 07/05/13

You were amazing, we did amazing things.


Harmony Canine, relationship based training.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:32 PM
Julee's Avatar
Julee Julee is online now
dogstrong
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Kent, CT
Posts: 3,065
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romy View Post
I might be remembering her post wrong, but I'm pretty sure she said 1/1000 evaluated.

Just the health screening would wipe out most potential candidates right there. The BYB dog gene pool that makes up the majority of shelter dogs isn't known for their health testing.
Very true for mobility and guide dogs. For a psych dog, medical alert/response dog, or a hearing dog... they do need to be physically sound, but it's not quite as strenuous as a guide or mobility dog's job.

An ESA is a pet for someone disabled by mental illness, they do not need specific training.
__________________
What I need, Dog becomes.
Dog is great. Dog is good. Dog is everything.




Equinox Shadow Of A Hero CGC "Shadow"
Equinox Ain't No Rest For The Wicked CGC "Embyr"
Equinox Play Me Some Mountain Music "Copper"
Equinox Don't Feed It After Midnight "Bloo"
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-02-2012, 07:39 PM
Romy's Avatar
Romy Romy is offline
Taxiderpy
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 10,038
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julee View Post
Very true for mobility and guide dogs. For a psych dog, medical alert/response dog, or a hearing dog... they do need to be physically sound, but it's not quite as strenuous as a guide or mobility dog's job.

An ESA is a pet for someone disabled by mental illness, they do not need specific training.
ESA is a whole different subject, because they don't have public access and aren't task trained. I wouldn't be too worried about a rescue training rescue dogs to have good basic house manners so they could be ESAs for people.

The psych, med alert/response, etc. is just as serious and needs to be taken just as seriously as mobility and guide dogs. Especially the hearing dogs. They all are held to the same standard of behavior in public and need to show consistency in performing their tasks, which is the hard part. It's easy to put tasks on a dog once they hit the level where they're good for public access anywhere.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:39 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site