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  #21  
Old 01-29-2006, 05:53 PM
doberkim doberkim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrackettCase
How does "health testing, titling and more proof of being structurally correct" guarantee that a dog will remain "healthy and what the breed SHOULD be"?
as opposed to just breeding cute colors and telling people they are healthy because they get shots every year and the vet SAYS they are healthy?

sorry, but you are a breeder and you REALLY mean to tell me, that you don't think health testing has its place in determining if an animal has genetic potential to pass on disease? You don't see the point in proving animals are structurally correct and fit?

Quote:
Health testing is a good start, but inherited defects can happen later in life.

Titling (I assume this means winning awards) has no bearing on health as breeding to a standard can introduce health problems. Not many breeders will breed from a dog that doesn't look like the "breed standard" - Why would someone go to a breeder for an Alsatian (for example) and buy a genetically deficient puppy that looked more like a collie?
titling means competing and obtaining titles showing that the dog is proficient in many areas - be it the breed ring, temperament, or in a variety of dog sports.

health testing is more than just an immediate glimpse - while some (like cardiac evaluations for certain breeds) need to be repeated, MANY are not ones that need repeating and can tell you a LOT about what a dog has and does not have. and repeated health testing throughout multiple generations enables you to look at the lines you have and what they carry. or, you could just bury your head in the sand, right?

Quote:
How many breeders actually promote temperament and “what the breed SHOULD be”? Owners need to be made aware of the general character of a breed before making a decision, but many breeders are only too willing to sell a puppy to anyone with the right amount of money in their pocket.
so because others do it, its ok? just because many breeders may NOT do something, does that mean we should just say, "oh screw it, lets settle for less"? any breeder i would consider ethical and responsible actively promotes their breed for what it is - in every manner. they are honest about health concerns, they are honest about structure, they get their dogs out there and prove their health, working abilities, structure and temperament.
they dont just have fancy websites and interested guarantees. yes, actively proving your dogs are healthy, structurally correct, possess proper working abilities and temperament - WILL provide me with a better chance of getting a dog that is what its breed SHOULD be. How else do you propose we better a breed? just write meaningless pieces of paper up that guarantee they will live for 10 years - and if they dont, oops ill give you another?
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  #22  
Old 01-30-2006, 02:34 AM
dorkusamongus dorkusamongus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrackettCase
How does "health testing, titling and more proof of being structurally correct" guarantee that a dog will remain "healthy and what the breed SHOULD be"?

How many breeders actually promote temperament and “what the breed SHOULD be”? Owners need to be made aware of the general character of a breed before making a decision, but many breeders are only too willing to sell a puppy to anyone with the right amount of money in their pocket.

Breeders have an obligation (to another breathing life form if nothing else) to ensure that prospective owners know what they are letting themselves in for.
Amen!
It's dificult to find a breeder that cares about the dogs future. A lot of breeders I have gone to are eager to take your cash without finding out if their puppy is going to a good home. I would expect the breeder to ask as many questions (if not more) than I do!
Dogs can get a lot from actively competing, unfortunately some breeders are very pompous about it; an ego trip. I wonder how big Doberkim's ego is - what's with the attitude?
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  #23  
Old 01-30-2006, 04:20 AM
rosieandjim rosieandjim is offline
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i know of drackettcase breeders. i have a friend that bought a cocker spaniel from them about a year ago. they are relly good breeders, probably the best in uk. my next dog will be from them.
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  #24  
Old 01-30-2006, 08:19 AM
DrackettCase DrackettCase is offline
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My point is that a breeder can tell you how healthy their line is or how many shows they***8217;ve won, but this alone does not guarantee the health of the puppy you purchase. We as breeders can work hard to minimise inherited defects, but a ten year life guarantee may not be what the breed needs. You have to ask questions: What have they done to the breed to make assurances like a minimum life span. Has it affected the size, character, or are there other implications that won***8217;t show for years to come.

Doberkim, maybe you missed my reply to a recent post:
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/show...579#post244579

Some things to consider before purchasing a puppy:
Have you met the breeder?
Have you seen both sire and dam (and their pedigree papers)?
Has the breeding stock been health tested?
Are you happy with the way they breed?
Will the breeder provide any ***8220;after sales***8221; support?
What do others that have made purchases from this breeder have to say?
Join a breed club. Even if you don***8217;t plan to show your dog, a breed club can give you some good advice.
Buy some books on the breed.
Stay away from puppy farmers!

Here is a good link for more info: http://www.dogstuff.info/decided_to_get_puppy.html
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  #25  
Old 01-30-2006, 10:21 AM
dorkusamongus dorkusamongus is offline
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Hey doberkim,
What do "titling" and "structurally correct" mean? Sounds like you want some kind of trophy.
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  #26  
Old 01-30-2006, 10:39 AM
casablanca1 casablanca1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saje
they guarantee that the dog will live for 10 years!!!
http://www.newfhillkennels.on.ca/
and they are $1,000
I knew that the giant breeds have short lifespans, but that's just depressing. And stupid. Why breed animals that take 3 years to mature, and then grow old and die within another 3? It's nonsensical. It's fascinating, though, the fact that different breeds have different lifespans. I remember Irish Setters are unusually long-lived for a large breed - can go to 17 or something.
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  #27  
Old 01-30-2006, 11:42 AM
BlackDog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casablanca1
I knew that the giant breeds have short lifespans, but that's just depressing. And stupid. Why breed animals that take 3 years to mature, and then grow old and die within another 3? It's nonsensical. It's fascinating, though, the fact that different breeds have different lifespans. I remember Irish Setters are unusually long-lived for a large breed - can go to 17 or something.
When they started breeding them they had the a specific surpose in mind for the dog. They probably didn't know that they would be making them have shorter live spans. It just happened. But yes, it is a bummer. However, those of which that keep these large short lived breeds often say it will well worth the pain. Better to have loved and lost then to have never loved at all.
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  #28  
Old 01-30-2006, 11:54 AM
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DanL DanL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorkusamongus
Hey doberkim,
What do "titling" and "structurally correct" mean? Sounds like you want some kind of trophy.
It has nothing to do with trophies. What it means (usually when talking about working dogs) is the dog has met the minimum standards to be bred. For example, for working line German Shepherds, it should pass a minimum Schutzhund level 1 which includes temprament testing, obedience, tracking and protection- what the dog was originally bred for. Higher levels of title mean the dog is clearly doing what it was designed for. A dog that can't pass those tests shouldn't be bred because it is not up to the breed standard. Structurally correct means the dog conforms to the breed guidelines- it's not too tall, too short, to heavy, too light, it's body confirmation is within the specs of the breed.

I don't understand what your issue is with doberkim, she's pretty much right on in her post. You seem to be picking a fight with her when she's really done nothing but given her ideas on what good breeders would do to make sure their dogs are improving the breed.
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  #29  
Old 01-30-2006, 11:58 AM
BlackDog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanL
It has nothing to do with trophies. What it means (usually when talking about working dogs) is the dog has met the minimum standards to be bred. For example, for working line German Shepherds, it should pass a minimum Schutzhund level 1 which includes temprament testing, obedience, tracking and protection- what the dog was originally bred for. Higher levels of title mean the dog is clearly doing what it was designed for. A dog that can't pass those tests shouldn't be bred because it is not up to the breed standard. Structurally correct means the dog conforms to the breed guidelines- it's not too tall, too short, to heavy, too light, it's body confirmation is within the specs of the breed.

I don't understand what your issue is with doberkim, she's pretty much right on in her post. You seem to be picking a fight with her when she's really done nothing but given her ideas on what good breeders would do to make sure their dogs are improving the breed.
I get in situations like that also, ALL the time.
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  #30  
Old 01-30-2006, 11:59 AM
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Giny Giny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorkusamongus
I wonder how big Doberkim's ego is - what's with the attitude?
Ego? What ego? All I've read here from Doberkim's post makes actual sense to me. Maybe if you started reading, truly reading, what Doberkim has to say and stop feeling defensive about your own practice/or/thoughts then you may learn from what she’s saying.
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