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  #11  
Old 10-28-2012, 07:23 PM
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A lot of people think that dogs that respond to be R+ must be "simple" dogs.
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  #12  
Old 10-28-2012, 07:27 PM
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"The dog should just do what I want it to, I shouldn't have to reward it or use food all the time."

and always:
When can I stop using the treat/praise/toy/reward?

Those, ALL the time...
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  #13  
Old 10-28-2012, 07:34 PM
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From the other side, I'd say it's a big misconception when people try to tell you PR will fix everything, ever.

So it's PR fixes everything vs. the "myth" that PR won't fix Xbreed or Xdog.

Personally, I think they are both really faulty ways to look at it. No, PR will NOT fix Zander's running. Just won't. I can put stops on it, like he waits at the door and I have about 50% more focus from him than I used to, but I don't ever expect him to be perfect, and I don't think anyone should be telling anyone else that they "must be doing it wrong" if PR/Clicker/whatever training doesn't fix EVERY issue EVER.

There's a certain point where it is less training and more of knowing your dog's limits and making sure you aren't setting them up to fail.
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  #14  
Old 10-28-2012, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyzelle View Post
There's a certain point where it is less training and more of knowing your dog's limits and making sure you aren't setting them up to fail.
That's very true, but I think that's true of ALL training methods. One of the myths I HATE more than anything is the, "So many dogs die when just ONE collar correction could have saved them!"

No. First off, just one of anything cannot save any dog. Second, if someone is accurately applying behaviorally sound methods to work on a serious problem and the dog simply doesn't make enough improvement or can't be managed, there is NO WAY IN HELL that a smack/pop/jerk/alpha roll is going going to help, let alone fix the issue.

Dogs have limits, and more importantly, there are limits to a handler's skill set and lifestyle that limit the effectiveness of any training method.

Anyway, I hate:

"Clicker trainers believe in 'never say no' and they don't give their dogs any consequences."

People who say, "Oh that wouldn't work, my dog needs consequences." LOL. Oh you're right, operant conditioning has nothing to do with consequences. Wut?

Unfortunately, I think inexperienced trainers perpetuate this. "Just ignore all bad behavior!" and meanwhile the dog is self reinforcing with its head in a garbage can.
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Old 10-28-2012, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily View Post
That's very true, but I think that's true of ALL training methods. One of the myths I HATE more than anything is the, "So many dogs die when just ONE collar correction could have saved them!"
Hate that over generalization. If it were that freaking easy to solve problem behaviors why are people searching and developing better ways to accomplish that?
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  #16  
Old 10-28-2012, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riobravo View Post
"The dog should just do what I want it to, I shouldn't have to reward it or use food all the time."
Oh em gee!! This one!! It is SO ingrained in us that our dogs should just do as we say because they’re lowly dogs and we’re superior humans and so there!

Or the folks who get a sit by pulling up and pushing down bragging that their dog sits because they just want to please the owner. uh... no... Your dog just sat because when he sits you quit cutting off his air supply. There’s no altruistic just want to please the master thing going on. Its survival!

I know a lot of dogs who work for praise, mine being among them. They thing me making funny noises and thumping or butt scratching them is the bees knees. However... If you crank the choke chain when your dog is “wrong” and praise your dog when he’s “right”, I have news for you. Your dog ain’t working for praise. He’s working for what’s called a non-punishment marker. IOW that “good boy” means “I’m not going to hurt you this time” not “oh joy my master is happy, my life is now complete.” Can you tell this one is a pet peeve of mine?

Okay and I totally forgot my counter argument.
My best counter argument really are my dogs.
Bates went from problem child who was killing chickens to getting 3 rally titles in 9 entries including not eating the wayward yorkie who broke heel and decided to attack him during his honor down. And no, I wasn’t waving a treat in front of his face - no treats in the AKC ring
Lunar went from feral, shot up mess who ate local goats and had no use for humans, including no faith in them around his food to therapy dog (well, minus two more supervised visits - I don’t anticipate any issues).
Breez at 2 was doing agility with a 7 year old handler and listening to her off leash around other dogs and handlers.
Biko is 14 he’s awesome and always has been

But honestly, when I hear a professional make unsound arguments against force free training, nowadays I just shake my head and move on. I may ask a few questions, but generally its not worth it. You can’t have a real conversation with someone who has that much cognitive dissonance going on.

When a lay person is clearly confused but seemingly open to learn, I do get in to some science and theory. I think it helps.
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  #17  
Old 10-28-2012, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaraB View Post
Hate that over generalization. If it were that freaking easy to solve problem behaviors why are people searching and developing better ways to accomplish that?
I know. I mean, really, if it worked like that, do people REALLY think R+ trainers would keep their heads that far up their asses? Don't you think we'd be all over it???

Pretty sure most of us would ABSOLUTELY use a leash correction if would truly save a life. But sadly things are never so simple.
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  #18  
Old 10-28-2012, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Danefied View Post
However... If you crank the choke chain when your dog is “wrong” and praise your dog when he’s “right”, I have news for you. Your dog ain’t working for praise. He’s working for what’s called a non-punishment marker. IOW that “good boy” means “I’m not going to hurt you this time” not “oh joy my master is happy, my life is now complete.” Can you tell this one is a pet peeve of mine?
Personally I love the people who don't want to be tied to food or toys, and want the dog to work for "them" and not for treats, but hey, I'll be stuck to my 6 ft lead and a choke chain for a loooong while. And THAT'S not a problem for them?

Ooookay.
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  #19  
Old 10-28-2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily View Post
Personally I love the people who don't want to be tied to food or toys, and want the dog to work for "them" and not for treats, but hey, I'll be stuck to my 6 ft lead and a choke chain for a loooong while. And THAT'S not a problem for them?

Ooookay.
Oh oh oh!! That reminds me of another one. For some reason I’ve seen this one a ton lately. R+ trained dogs can never be off leash. They can never be loose and free and just “be” dogs.
Ya....
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  #20  
Old 10-28-2012, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Danefied View Post
Oh oh oh!! That reminds me of another one. For some reason I’ve seen this one a ton lately. R+ trained dogs can never be off leash. They can never be loose and free and just “be” dogs.
Ya....
I've seen that one a lot too recently. Typically hand in hand with the "you'll never be more rewarding than a squirrel"

But then again, I have a herding breed so I've also been told I really can't have an opinion on that stuff since my dogs come with a magical recall
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