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  #61  
Old 10-18-2012, 07:47 AM
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JacksonsMom JacksonsMom is offline
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Originally Posted by Sweet72947 View Post
I have rarely encountered other rescuers who don't proscribe to the "breeders are horrible" credo. I've known a few here and there, like one girl who had a whippet from show lines (although he has passed away now) and she also liked attending dog shows, and was rather intelligent and sane as rescuers go. A lot of them, though, eat up the ARist propaganda like it's candy. FOHA even had bumper stickers, manufactured by the HSUS, that said "My dog saves lives, he/she is NEUTERED/SPAYED." (there is one for males, and one for females) Messages like that don't differentiate between the good and bad in breeding. Just reproduction = bad! Very dangerous thinking.

Also, Miles is intact and I daresay his testicles aren't out murdering innocents or any such thing. Well, that I know of anyway....lol
I do agree - it's annoying. However I DO think when it comes to the general public and Joe Schmo... the spay/neuter campaign is a good one.

Otherwise, again, you get the "well it's okay to breed a dog, every one else does it!" and that's when you get people who just randomly bought two mixed dogs, no idea of their genetics or background and start breeding and then have no idea where puppies go, thus BYB.

I think it would be a dangerous thing to start spreading the opposite message (that you really don't always have to spay/neuter) because honestly, the average public *can't* handle it. And the more it's pushed, the more it's just a very common thing to do, people don't think twice about fixing their dogs.

I mean, my mom owns a salon and oen of her hair dressers bred her puggle last year... yeah "it was like a dog orgy going on in my living room!" god only knows where all those puppies are now but people like her should NOT be messing with breeding dogs and I'm afraid if the spay/neuter message wasn't around a wholeeeee lot more people like her would be.
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  #62  
Old 10-18-2012, 08:11 AM
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I do agree - it's annoying. However I DO think when it comes to the general public and Joe Schmo... the spay/neuter campaign is a good one.

Otherwise, again, you get the "well it's okay to breed a dog, every one else does it!" and that's when you get people who just randomly bought two mixed dogs, no idea of their genetics or background and start breeding and then have no idea where puppies go, thus BYB.
I honestly am not sure how much the S/N stuff affects those people TBH.

I think a "Train and Contain" campaign would be so much more beneficial in terms of keeping dogs out of shelters. It's a shame AR groups aren't really about proper care and ownership. When they say "Spay and Neuter until there are none!", they really mean none and that is the real reason behind S/N campaigns. And it is seems they have been successful in havinga negative effect on purebred dogs. These articles are really interesting:

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFil...storm_pt_1.pdf

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFil...storm_pt_2.pdf
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  #63  
Old 10-18-2012, 08:17 AM
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Ok so I'm gonna ask again.

Let's say there's a reputable breeder, health tests, shows his dogs, does health testing etc... He had 15 people ask for a puppy, so he breeds his dogs, and sells them on a spay/neuter contract only. Is that acceptable then? Because it's not breeding to continue/improve the line... it's breeding for pets. The breeder might or might not make money, but he still contributes to adding some dogs in the world. Of course if he has plans to keep a puppy for breeding, or sell some for showing, then it's totally different (and I'm guessing the only responsible breeders only breed because they intend to continue their breeding line).

As I said, I'm mixed on the issue. I understand that some people want that perfect dog that will fit exactly what they're looking for, but truth be told, they *could* be a little bit lenient and get a shelter/rescue puppy instead (obviously if the puppies were bred to try and get show/breeding prospects, they're born anyway so I have no problem with it). It's definitely their choice not to and I respect that, but in that sense, some of the anti-breeders have a point, IMO.

Then again I bet it's easier sometimes to get a dog from a responsible breeder (or BYB obviously) than from a rescue (as opposed to the shelter). When we're ready to add a kitten, for example, the first place I'll look at is craigslist... I don't have any intention of dealing with a picky rescue if I can afford it.

And most of those snobs who look down at rescue dogs... they got their dogs from BYBs I bet.
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  #64  
Old 10-18-2012, 08:29 AM
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Temperament and heath are huge considerations, too. It is one of my main reasons to go to a breeder. Watching rescue dog after rescue dog succum to mental issues or serious health issues after being placed.in a loving home for only a year...it's heartbreaking. Some breeds more than others.

Rescue dogs aren't broken, but that is a huge difference.
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  #65  
Old 10-18-2012, 08:30 AM
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I will say, this one makes me really angry. I wish it didn't but it really does. It's just... unbelievable to me to behave as if the contributions people who also breed dogs make to rescue work don't count. Are you kidding me?
That one makes me really mad, too, because in addition to how I feel about the sentiment behind it, it's just such sloppy thinking. It's a terrible analogy.
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  #66  
Old 10-18-2012, 08:39 AM
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the best way to respond to crap like in the OP is to relate stories like this. it opens dialogue w/ the ignorant but open minded that want to do the right thing. the "true believers" will never convert, but at least you can reach those on the side lines.
This is what I'm afraid of. I have two dogs currently. A spayed bitch and an intact male I show and trial. My husband wants a dog, but right now isn't the right time. He'd like to attempt training it to possibly do some hog hunting, tracking? I'm not sure. He truly knows very little about it, and I wouldn't know where to start either. Basically whatever his dog is will end up being trained basic manners by me and will end up being a pet, since I have a feeling he will get bored with the training, or not know what to do. I'd like to rescue another young cattle dog mix or cattle dog since we both like the ACD's and they could potentially make a decent hunting partner for my husband. I've seen some nice ones come through rescue, but I haven't bothered contacting anyone because I know we will get turned down. No one would give us a rescue if we admitted wanting to try hunting with it, and no one would sell us a rescue while I have an intact dog in the house.
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  #67  
Old 10-18-2012, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Fran27 View Post
Ok so I'm gonna ask again.

Let's say there's a reputable breeder, health tests, shows his dogs, does health testing etc... He had 15 people ask for a puppy, so he breeds his dogs, and sells them on a spay/neuter contract only. Is that acceptable then? Because it's not breeding to continue/improve the line... it's breeding for pets. The breeder might or might not make money, but he still contributes to adding some dogs in the world. Of course if he has plans to keep a puppy for breeding, or sell some for showing, then it's totally different (and I'm guessing the only responsible breeders only breed because they intend to continue their breeding line).
I don't understand why you have a problem with breeding dogs to be pets? If I were to get my next Stafford from a breeder, she would be a pet not a show dog or breeder. If the dogs are health tested, from good lines, and temperamentally sound, why is it a problem to breed them to go to pet homes? Especially if you have a waiting list and already have homes lines up for the dogs. I just don't understand your logic here.
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  #68  
Old 10-18-2012, 09:12 AM
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Being a pet is a valid job. As valid as running agility or being shown in conformation or any of the other things that people do with their dogs.

I know that there is a split in thinking about whether dogs should be bred specifically to be pets vs. "any dog can fulfill the role of a pet." I happen to fall on the side that breeding for companionship/pets is a perfectly reasonable and valid pursuit. There are specific characteristics that people look for in "just a pet" dog just like there are specific characteristics that people look for in dogs meant for other jobs. Otherwise we would all be ok with people getting COs or working line Siberians to be "just pets" since any dog can fulfill that role.
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  #69  
Old 10-18-2012, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Fran27 View Post
Ok so I'm gonna ask again.

Let's say there's a reputable breeder, health tests, shows his dogs, does health testing etc... He had 15 people ask for a puppy, so he breeds his dogs, and sells them on a spay/neuter contract only. Is that acceptable then? Because it's not breeding to continue/improve the line... it's breeding for pets. The breeder might or might not make money, but he still contributes to adding some dogs in the world. Of course if he has plans to keep a puppy for breeding, or sell some for showing, then it's totally different (and I'm guessing the only responsible breeders only breed because they intend to continue their breeding line).
IMO, no, breeders shouldn't strive to breed for pet quality dogs. Of course there WILL be pet quality pups in every litter (any breeder that tells someone otherwise is lying), but they should ultimately be breeding for show quality dogs that meet the breed standard (to better the breed).

Again, JMO.
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  #70  
Old 10-18-2012, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Fran27 View Post
Ok so I'm gonna ask again.

Let's say there's a reputable breeder, health tests, shows his dogs, does health testing etc... He had 15 people ask for a puppy, so he breeds his dogs, and sells them on a spay/neuter contract only. Is that acceptable then? Because it's not breeding to continue/improve the line... it's breeding for pets. The breeder might or might not make money, but he still contributes to adding some dogs in the world. Of course if he has plans to keep a puppy for breeding, or sell some for showing, then it's totally different (and I'm guessing the only responsible breeders only breed because they intend to continue their breeding line).

As I said, I'm mixed on the issue. I understand that some people want that perfect dog that will fit exactly what they're looking for, but truth be told, they *could* be a little bit lenient and get a shelter/rescue puppy instead (obviously if the puppies were bred to try and get show/breeding prospects, they're born anyway so I have no problem with it). It's definitely their choice not to and I respect that, but in that sense, some of the anti-breeders have a point, IMO
Your scenario is only potentially problematic if you are starting with the viewpoint that "adding some dogs in the world" is an inherently bad thing thing to do and needs to be justified away.

This is a viewpoint I do not share.

To me, anyone who is breeding dogs for a purpose (companionship counts), has those dogs objectively tested in that capacity, does relevant health tests, ensures to the best of their ability that the dog is structurally sound, and provides a lifelong fallback plan for every puppy they produce is good to go. Thatvis to say, they meet the baseline. They may not be producing what *I* am looking for but hey I represent a very small segment of the population. They are not contributing to the unwanted pets problem. And they are such a small segment of the breeding population relative to farming operations and true throw-whatever-we-got-together bybs.

And educate the heck out of the general population so folks know where and how to find what they are looking for outside of a petstore or the newspaper classifieds.
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