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Old 10-09-2012, 10:23 PM
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Default Orijen/Acana protein levels?

Would they be too high for a large breed puppy?

A lady in my training class and I were chatting casually and we got onto the topic of foods. She really enthusiastically suggested I try Katalin on Orijen 6 Fish/Adult formula - I said she's been on Acana previously and had alot of loose stool; she's currently on Firstmate large breed and doing extremely well on that so I saw no reason to change it. I've heard it's advisable to switch foods around every once in a while though - from this lady and others.

But I've also heard from my vet that high protein levels (30% +) can lead to a variety of issues (we didn't go into in depth discussion about it that visit so I can't speak for his reasoning/basis of that) - also, my breeder advised me that puppy food/food with a high caloric and/or protien level should be discontinued by 4 months. Lots of extra large breed breeders also advise against using puppy food past 4 - 6 months.

"How may I act when all present me with their partial arguments?" - Helen Mirren as Elizabeth I.

Please offer opinions/shed some light on this. Are those foods and their protien levels ok for a giant breed puppy (11 mos)? and is it necessary/wise to "switch around" foods every now and again?
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:29 PM
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I've gone to quite a few nutritionists/vets on the topic of large/giant breed puppies and food (for my future OES!) and the most consistent and most backed up answers came in the form of protein and fats not being the issue, that Calcium to Phos ratio is everything!

My understanding is that ideally 1:1 ratio is best. And after that I called a crap ton of "all life stages, all breeds" food companies for their ratio numbers and found that a lot of them are not suitable at all for a growing large/giant breed puppy.
For example Pure Vita GF Bison is almost perfect for large/giant breed puppies, but the Pure Vita GF Salmon has levels of Cal/Phos ratio that would not end well at all for large/giant puppies. They both claim to be all life stages/all breeds.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:37 PM
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I ask Lauren when I have questions, or I refer them to Fromm Large Breed Puppy...
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:37 PM
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Yes, its NOT protein that is the issue, its Ca:Ph and often just general over feeding.

Personally I would not feel comfortable feeding a grain inclusive food with high protein, but a quality grain free, great as long as the other ratios are ok.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:14 AM
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It makes no sense that it would be the protein levels when one looks at it logically. A raw diet is even higher than that of orijin. Many a massive breed back in history was raised on mostly meat (if not all meat) and lived just fine. More of the issues pop up when you get away from natural diets.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:15 AM
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It is indeed a Calcium to phosphorus ratio issue, not a protein issue. That said I don't remember if those foods have a good ratio or not, I'm sure there is a way to find out. I just wanted to say that Orijen has a large breed puppy formula, so I'd assume they got the ratio right for that one at least.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:23 PM
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Thanks everyone.

Maxy,

Indeed they do - and it is...

Calcium (min./max.) 1.5 % / 1.7 %
Phosphorus (min./max.) 1.2 % / 1.4 %
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:42 AM
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Definitely the Ca/Ph levels are super important.

If you can, try to contact companies for their ash content (which goes hand in hand with ca/ph levels... generally speaking it's on the high side if ca/ph levels are over 1.5%. At that point, I now start to question the quality of meat going into them. Ash is used as a bucket term for all the minerals in a formula (aka minerals that don't burn). 5% to 7% and under ash is good. 8% to 9% is on the high side. Anything higher (like 12%) is just really high. And THAT is what can be taxing on the kidneys. Not simply high protein alone. But WHERE the protein is coming from.

Here is the ash levels for Acana:

The ash levels for the new Regionalís are as follows:
Wild Prairie- 7%
Pacifica-8%
Grasslands- 9%
Ranchlands-9%
Lamb & Okanagan Apple-9%
Duck & Bartlett Pear-7.5%
Chicken & Burbank Potato-7.5%

Not sure of Orijen's but I'm pretty sure it's lower than most foods with similar protein ranges.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:41 AM
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Thanks so much! I'll email Champion about Orijen levels. I'll email Firstmate about those levels on the food she's currently on now too.

I'm wondering now though - is there any real merit or benefit from switching foods around just for the sake of switching them/rotating them? I know dogs that eat a particular thing for most of their lives and do just fine - also know dogs that have their foods rotated every now and again and they do fine too. So...yeah, opinions would be good lol.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephyMei1112 View Post
Thanks so much! I'll email Champion about Orijen levels. I'll email Firstmate about those levels on the food she's currently on now too.

I'm wondering now though - is there any real merit or benefit from switching foods around just for the sake of switching them/rotating them? I know dogs that eat a particular thing for most of their lives and do just fine - also know dogs that have their foods rotated every now and again and they do fine too. So...yeah, opinions would be good lol.
I think it probably depends on the dog. Like you said, some do great eating the same thing. Some develop food sensitivities or get bored.

I'm personally a big fan of rotating personally, because I think it helps stave off boredom (I wouldn't want to eat the same thing every day and I know Tyrion gets bored if I don't rotate his treats) and it's kind of a safeguard in case of recalls (something you feed got pulled? No problem if you feed other things too!) and more balanced nutrition (if one food is slightly too low or slightly too high in something, feeding a variety can help compensate for that).

But again, I know some dogs do not take well to food changes, and do much better just eating something consistent, so it just depends.
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