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  #41  
Old 10-09-2012, 06:40 PM
crazedACD crazedACD is offline
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If the dogs fight in the house, they usually get hit by a chair/barstool coming between them to distract them enough to pull them apart.

I have no interest in smacking a dog or cat for training/behavior. I can't think of where they would really 'get' what I'm doing. I have/will use prongs and choke chains and it works for me, I've got the hang of phasing them out.

I've smacked horses though in certain situations because nagging at them doesn't do much. I'm not too big on them walking over me because they feel silly..haha. Respect ze personal space.
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  #42  
Old 10-09-2012, 06:41 PM
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I was always taught that being physical with horses is almost a must. Idk though, I have very limited experience in that area.
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  #43  
Old 10-09-2012, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
I was always taught that being physical with horses is almost a must. Idk though, I have very limited experience in that area.
Me too, but in retrospect, I think that's bullshit. I wish somebody had set better examples for me when I was young and learning about horses. I'd do so many things differently.
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  #44  
Old 10-09-2012, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Emily View Post
Samesies. Management/crisis mode is different than training.

As for the rest of it... I have a temper. I understand frustration. I mean, my god, I work at a daycare/boarding kennel. I have been, at times, frustrated, exhausted, in pain, and absolutely pushed past my threshold for sanity and rational behavior.

We all do things we regret out of anger/frustration, and I am no exception and I am certainly no saint. But I view physical punishment as either the extreme spectrum of management (or self defense), or simply a mistake on the handler's part.

I have gone through a steep learning curve regarding impulse control working in an environment where my buttons get pushed repeatedly by dogs that aren't mine and that I don't have the capacity to actually train. Losing my temper has never, ever given me any satisfaction in the end. Usually I just feel like a douche.

My motto is to be the smarter animal, and defuse conflict instead of escalate it. Or at least to try. I have never, ever come to regret being patient and understanding. Ever. I have, without exception, regretted letting my temper dictate my interactions with animals.

As for formal training, oh HELL no. It doesn't teach them anything except that you can and will cross that line with them, and to be scared of doing whatever it is they were doing when you whacked them. And I view using physical "cues" like popping and swatting as a total failure on my part as a trainer. If I can't get their attention without that, I have some seriously neglected foundation work.

Beyond humane treatment of animals, I've not seen hitting/popping/spanking/slapping/jerking promote much in the way of learning or improved behavior. Lack of behavior, sometimes, but that's about it. And call me cold, but that's also a major motivation of mine. I want effective training strategies, not just those that make me feel better or stroke my ego.
Great post. Lots of good posts on this thread.

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Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
I was always taught that being physical with horses is almost a must. Idk though, I have very limited experience in that area.
Codswallop.
Try getting physical with a half ton animal who doesn’t want to do what you’re trying to make him do. Always fun to watch the end of the event and people trying to load the *tired* horse in to a trailer. Nope, you can’t force a half ton animal do do anything period. Clicker train ‘em in to a trailer though, and you’re good to go.
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  #45  
Old 10-09-2012, 07:03 PM
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I've hit a dog before when I was younger. I was taught you were supposed to spank them and be 'alpha'. In return I got bitten.

Since then I try to not get to that point where I react without thinking. I don't think it does any good at all.

I've had to kick Mia to prevent her from jumping up into the oven when it was on. She cried and cried but I only did it out of reflex and for her own safety.

Mia likes to be gently kicked in play though.
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  #46  
Old 10-09-2012, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily View Post
Samesies. Management/crisis mode is different than training.

As for the rest of it... I have a temper. I understand frustration. I mean, my god, I work at a daycare/boarding kennel. I have been, at times, frustrated, exhausted, in pain, and absolutely pushed past my threshold for sanity and rational behavior.

We all do things we regret out of anger/frustration, and I am no exception and I am certainly no saint. But I view physical punishment as either the extreme spectrum of management (or self defense), or simply a mistake on the handler's part.

I have gone through a steep learning curve regarding impulse control working in an environment where my buttons get pushed repeatedly by dogs that aren't mine and that I don't have the capacity to actually train. Losing my temper has never, ever given me any satisfaction in the end. Usually I just feel like a douche.

My motto is to be the smarter animal, and defuse conflict instead of escalate it. Or at least to try. I have never, ever come to regret being patient and understanding. Ever. I have, without exception, regretted letting my temper dictate my interactions with animals.

As for formal training, oh HELL no. It doesn't teach them anything except that you can and will cross that line with them, and to be scared of doing whatever it is they were doing when you whacked them. And I view using physical "cues" like popping and swatting as a total failure on my part as a trainer. If I can't get their attention without that, I have some seriously neglected foundation work.

Beyond humane treatment of animals, I've not seen hitting/popping/spanking/slapping/jerking promote much in the way of learning or improved behavior. Lack of behavior, sometimes, but that's about it. And call me cold, but that's also a major motivation of mine. I want effective training strategies, not just those that make me feel better or stroke my ego.
I haven't read the whole thread, but this just about sums up my opinion. I do beat on Boone in play. I thump him all over, and he loves every minute of it. I may also reach over and "pop" him and be like, "Hey, you. Yeah, you. You're the handsomest dog in the world. (Though not yet proven in a widely recognized venue, it's still true. So there.)"

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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
...I've totally intimidated, stomped at, and yelled at my dogs out of frustration...I don't take pride in it and make no excuses.

I figure the glory is in the progress.
This.
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  #47  
Old 10-09-2012, 07:36 PM
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In those cases, I don't view it as training. I view it as "crisis management". Your dog trying to eat a kid =/= a training moment. You do whatever is necessary to keep everyone safe and alive, then go back and train later when the dog isn't overstimulated and nobody is in danger.
This.

But in training? No. Not ever.

And that is not to say I haven't lost my temper with my dogs and gotten physical with them, because I have (with Luce and Mushroom, mostly-- losing my temper is really not an option with Steve because of his temperament). But was I in the right? Absolutely not.
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  #48  
Old 10-09-2012, 07:42 PM
crazedACD crazedACD is offline
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Originally Posted by Danefied View Post
Great post. Lots of good posts on this thread.


Codswallop.
Try getting physical with a half ton animal who doesn’t want to do what you’re trying to make him do. Always fun to watch the end of the event and people trying to load the *tired* horse in to a trailer. Nope, you can’t force a half ton animal do do anything period. Clicker train ‘em in to a trailer though, and you’re good to go.
Ugh..I never would go when friends nearly had 'parties' to get their horse to load. I never had problems with any of mine.

I don't think trying to use physical pain to coerce them into doing something works that well. I do think a swat works pretty well when you are about to get run over/bit/stepped on/whatnot.

My neighbor had this paint pony thing that reared. Like you got on him...and he reared. And then trotted half way around, stopped, reared. Jumped..stopped..reared. I actually managed to get him working for me pretty well when she asked for help with him. She would get on him, he reared. So..one time, she got pissed off enough that she got off him and started alternating whipping him with the end of the reins and yanking on his mouth. I was across that arena like nothing, grabbing the pony away, and we were yelling at each other..ugh. I told her to get back ON him and see how far she gets doing that. I tried to buy him from her and she sold him out from under me.
People treat horses so so poorly..I mean what does that even accomplish? I've seen more than my fair share of abuse and I don't tolerate it well.
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  #49  
Old 10-09-2012, 08:01 PM
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There was a Friesian we boarded that only liked people that hit her. Maybe she was a masochist?
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  #50  
Old 10-09-2012, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
There was a Friesian we boarded that only liked people that hit her. Maybe she was a masochist?
What behavior was evidence to you that this mare “liked” someone? Horses are just as good at appeasement gestures as dogs - and humans are just as quick to interpret appeasement as “like”.
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