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  #51  
Old 09-30-2012, 12:25 PM
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With cougars, especially if you're hunting solely with predator calls and the like, you don't get the luxury of cherry picking a trophy cougar. Usually it's whatever cat is in the area and happens to respond to the call where you can see (my dad always says to put your back to a tree if you're using one).

Most hunters I know that go for the large carnivores aren't trying to set some record for the most gigantic bear or cougar or whatever. Most of them are doing it for the challenge, making fun memories, if it's the right time of year they might get a nice pelt or something, but I've never talked to a hunter who was concerned about skull measurements or anything like that. Most trophy hunters I know are more into horned animals because with them at least, you can tell whether the animal is a trophy or not before you kill it and use up your tag for the season.
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  #52  
Old 09-30-2012, 01:15 PM
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Well, if you read the science, the articles I posted, the research, and statistics, you will find that most of the conflicts with humans and livestock are from the younger cougars and that it is indicated that the balance is disrupted between mature and juvenile cougars...that hunting does increase the attacks on humans...that hunting with hounds does not lessen attacks on livestock. I remember hearing about this very thing back when I lived in Idaho. But these reputable sources of this information reiterate this.
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  #53  
Old 09-30-2012, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
Well, if you read the science, the articles I posted, the research, and statistics, you will find that most of the conflicts with humans and livestock are from the younger cougars and that it is indicated that the balance is disrupted between mature and juvenile cougars...that hunting does increase the attacks on humans...that hunting with hounds does not lessen attacks on livestock. I remember hearing about this very thing back when I lived in Idaho. But these reputable sources of this information reiterate this.
if you read the about us sections of those organizations, you'll see that they have a predetermined position. that in and of itself casts doubt on the legitimacy of their science. assuming they dind't cherry pick their data is like assuming BSL advocates don't cherry pick theirs. the very fact that two of your sources contradict on the number of nuisance lions killed in the same year for CA (one says 42 and the others says 102) shows that their use of data is biased at best. additionally their positions (like most prohunting positions as well) are operating on the false assumption that hunting is the sole arbiter of statistical changes in adverse lion/human interactions.
unfortunately raw data available at the USDA wildlife services sight is of limited utility because it only goe back to 1996 and only details kills by the USDA. also unfortunately the state wildlife management agencies don't keep any longterm stats on their websites either. but their numbers are more significant because livestock predations are generally handled by USDA or privately, OTH the WMAs generally handle the repeated urban & suburban animals that are considered a direct threat to people.
the current management parctices are not ideal, i know that. but history has shown the two most destructive management practices are unlimited, unregulate killing & complete hands off.
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  #54  
Old 09-30-2012, 11:36 PM
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There is still a young male loose here, confirmed by the dept. of wildlife. He was last seen in my neighbor's tree. We are told to be on high alert especially after dark.
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  #55  
Old 10-01-2012, 01:40 AM
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In our area a couple years ago, we had a cougar overpopulation and they did have to offer more tags for them. So I'm not sure if I can quite understand the idea that they "self regulate". They're a top predator. And top predators overpopulate when there is an abundance of prey.
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  #56  
Old 10-01-2012, 02:14 AM
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Oh man, I hope they catch him soon. You must be so anxious for your dogs. Do they know for sure that there was only two of them? I'd probably run electric wire all over their kennels after something like this just to be safe.
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  #57  
Old 10-01-2012, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Chrome View Post
There is still a young male loose here, confirmed by the dept. of wildlife. He was last seen in my neighbor's tree. We are told to be on high alert especially after dark.
This is of particular concern. I hope they catch him soon and you and your pets stay safe.
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  #58  
Old 10-01-2012, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
if you read the about us sections of those organizations, you'll see that they have a predetermined position. that in and of itself casts doubt on the legitimacy of their science. assuming they dind't cherry pick their data is like assuming BSL advocates don't cherry pick theirs. the very fact that two of your sources contradict on the number of nuisance lions killed in the same year for CA (one says 42 and the others says 102) shows that their use of data is biased at best. additionally their positions (like most prohunting positions as well) are operating on the false assumption that hunting is the sole arbiter of statistical changes in adverse lion/human interactions.
unfortunately raw data available at the USDA wildlife services sight is of limited utility because it only goe back to 1996 and only details kills by the USDA. also unfortunately the state wildlife management agencies don't keep any longterm stats on their websites either. but their numbers are more significant because livestock predations are generally handled by USDA or privately, OTH the WMAs generally handle the repeated urban & suburban animals that are considered a direct threat to people.
the current management parctices are not ideal, i know that. but history has shown the two most destructive management practices are unlimited, unregulate killing & complete hands off.
This is the typical argument here, when people can't get their foot out of their mouth. They often attempt to invalidate the sources that one presents as their answer, which is exactly what I see you doing here.

I tend to believe the following list over your groundless dithering. No offense or anything but you're good at one thing: Bull sh!!!ng. You love to sound like you're such the authority on wild life because you hunt. But newsflash....I will buy what wild life biologists with advanced university degrees, researchers from well known universities, fish and game departments all over the country, people basically, who have been researching and taking down statistics for years over your empty prattle. And this is current information, not old, as you tossed into your attempt to invalidate the sources I mentioned.

The reason I say this is because I do think education about these big carnivores is important and that humans in general understand that hunting them too heavily is what results in this very thing....young male cougars coming in closer to humans for atypical prey. I think it's important that people don't automatically think killing more of them is the answer when in reality, killing more of them is what causes more confrontations with humans, livestock, and pets.

Do you really believe that all of the following sources have a biased agenda? Come now. Then we can say that about anything, any subject that scientists are learning and showing us today. These are not a bunch of yahoo protesters, whining about killing animals. These are reputable sources. What are your reputable sources of biologists, scientists, researchers, statisticians, universities that specialize in this sort of thing like WSU that dispute the fact that hunting more cougars increases human/livestock conflict?

These are the scientists who, according to you, have an up in the clouds agenda. I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm sorry you are the type to reject education because you will remain ignorant. I'll highlight just a few:


WSU Department of Natural Resource Sciences

http://www.predatordefense.org/docs/...wsulab2012.pdf





Cougar predation key to ecosystem health

Oregon State University


http://www.predatordefense.org/docs/...y_10-24-06.pdf



http://www.mountainlion.org/us/wa/-wa-portal.asp
Gary Koehler is Principle Investigator on Project CAT and has been employed by the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife as Wildlife Research Scientist since 1994. He received a Ph.D. from the University of Idaho and has spent the past 30 years conducting research on a variety of carnivores: including pine marten, wolverine, bobcat, lynx, cougars and American black bears in North America, to lions in Africa and tigers in China and India. He has published findings of these studies in scientific journals as well as in the popular press.





http://seattletimes.com/html/localne...yndication=rss

Graduate Student
Washington State University


Director of Large Carnivore Conservation Laboratory
Washington State University


Wildlife Biologist With the Department
Fish
Education
doctorate
Washington State University


Robert B. Wielgus
Associate Professor and Director of the Large Carnivore Conservation Lab
Research Interests
Population, behavioral, and habitat ecology of large carnivores (grizzly bears, black bears, cougars) and their prey (mountain caribou, mule deer).
Educational Background
Ph.D. Forest Sciences, 1993
University of British Columbia - Vancouver, BC Canada
M.S. Wildlife Resources, 1986
University of Idaho - Moscow, ID
B.S. Environmental Sciences, 1981
Brandon University





http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.0060040

References*Top
Kellert SR*(1996) The value of life: Biological diversity and human society. Washington (DC): Island Press.
Young SP, Goldman EA*(1946) The puma: Mysterious American cat. Washington (DC): The American Wildlife Institute.
Culver M, Johnson WE, Pecon-Slattery J, O'Brien SJ*(2000) Genomic ancestry of the puma (puma concolor). J Hered 91: 186–197.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources*(2002) The IUCN red list of threatened species.*Puma concolor—Near threatened. Available:http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/de...php/18868/summ. Accessed 15 January 2008.
Washington State Department of Natural Resources*(2006) Forest land conversion in Washington state. Available:*http://www.dnr.wa.gov/htdocs/agency/...cs/landuse.pdf. Accessed 15 January 2008.
College of Forest Resources, University of Washington*(2007) The future of Washington's forests and forestry industries. Final report, July 31, 2007. Available:http://www.ruraltech.org/projects/fw...port/index.asp. Accessed 15 January 2008.
Kretz J*(2003 August 18) Cougar carnage at the Promised Land Ranch. The Idaho Observer. Available:*http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20030?818.htm. Accessed 15 January 2008.
Robinson HS, Wielgus RB, Gwilliam JC*(2002) Cougar predation and population growth of sympatric mule deer and white-tailed deer. Can J Zool 80: 556–568.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
Katnik DD*(2002) Predation and habitat ecology of mountain lions*(Puma concolor)*in the southern Selkirk Mountains [dissertation]. Pullman (WA): Washington State University.
Smuts GL*(1978) Effects of population reduction on the travels and reproduction of lions in Kruger National Park. Carnivore 1: 61–72.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
Jedrzejewska BW, Jedrzejewski AN, Bunevich L, Milkowski L, Okarma H*(1996) Population dynamics of wolves*Canis lupus*in Bialowieza Primeval Forest (Poland and Belarus) in relation to hunting by humans, 1847–1993. Mamm Rev 26: 103–126.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
Beier P*(1991) Cougar attacks on humans in the United States and Canada. Wildl Soc Bull 19: 403–412.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
Beier P*(1992) Cougar attacks on humans: an update and some further reflections.
Lambert CS, Wielgus RB, Robinson HS, Katnik DD, Cruickshank HS, et al.*(2006) Cougar population dynamics and viability in the Pacific Northwest. J Wildl Manage 70: 246–254.
Wielgus RB, Sarraxin F, Ferriere R, Clobert J*(2001) Estimating effects of adult male mortality on grizzly bear population growth and persistence using matrix models. Biol Conserv 98: 293–303.
Washington Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit*(2002) Mountain lion predation on endangered woodland caribou, mule deer, and white-tailed deer. Available:http://depts.washington.edu/wacfwru/...redation.shtml. Accessed 15 January 2008.
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife*(2008) 2009–2015 Game management plan development. Available:*http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/manageme...2015/index.htm. Accessed 15 January 2008.
Laundré JW, Hernández L, Altendorf KB*(2001) Wolves, elk, and bison: reestablishing the “landscape of fear” in Yellowstone National Park, U.S.A. Can J Zool 79: 1401–1409.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
*(1986) Habitat fragmentation in the temperate zone. In: Soulé ME, editor. Conservation biology: the science of scarcity and diversity. Sunderland (MA): Sinauer Associates. pp. 237–256.
Goldman EA*(1925) The predatory mammal problem and the balance of nature. J Mammal 6: 28–33.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
Martorello DA, Beausoleil RA*(2003) Characteristics of cougar harvest with and without the use of dogs.

Some of the articles are about other topics as well besides the cougar, but many of the authors, university departments, and researchers etc are the same.
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"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams 1776





"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #59  
Old 10-02-2012, 11:47 PM
Pops2 Pops2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
This is the typical argument here, when people can't get their foot out of their mouth. They often attempt to invalidate the sources that one presents as their answer, which is exactly what I see you doing here.
because they ARE invalid. they are political websites NOT actual studies. like ANY political organization they cherry picked what supported their predetermined message. because of my Pashto course, i don't have time to tear apart each site at this time, but i'll see what i can do this weekend.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
I tend to believe the following list over your groundless dithering. No offense or anything but you're good at one thing: Bull sh!!!ng. You love to sound like you're such the authority on wild life because you hunt. But newsflash....I will buy what wild life biologists with advanced university degrees, researchers from well known universities, fish and game departments all over the country, people basically, who have been researching and taking down statistics for years over your empty prattle. And this is current information, not old, as you tossed into your attempt to invalidate the sources I mentioned.
IME only trappers have more thorough knowledge of wildlife than hound hunters. that knowledge is based on the sheer number of hours spent actually in the woods in observation of wildlife. both groups have known since colonial times that bobcat killed deer. for MOST of the 20th century the acedemic/scientific community absolutely denied that bobcats actively preyed on deer. then as the population of both species began to recover and the volume of physical evidence accumulated they changed their tune to only northern bobs & deer in deep snow. as southern populations recovered and the same situation of accumulated evidence occured, they changed to only fawns & only occassionally. then the study in SC in the 90s that showed (at least for the studied population) that bobs preyed on deer year round & they made up as much as 70% of bobcat diets. so it only took the academic community 90 years to learn what the hunting & trapping community had known all along. sadly anti hunting groups & a lot of academics not directly involve in wildlife & forrestry sciences still parrot 50-90 year old untruths.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
The reason I say this is because I do think education about these big carnivores is important and that humans in general understand that hunting them too heavily is what results in this very thing....young male cougars coming in closer to humans for atypical prey. I think it's important that people don't automatically think killing more of them is the answer when in reality, killing more of them is what causes more confrontations with humans, livestock, and pets.
again no actual studies just black and white statements that may or may not be true IF the actual studies include ALL variables. for example, unless the studies examined the effects of prey population declines on adolescent male dispersal, they failed to use scientific method by EXCLUDING other possible causes of the end result.
for example of alternate causes of dispersal look at the north kings CA deer herd that was estimated at 17,000 in 1950 but only 2,000 in 1988. cougars eat an average of 1/2-1 deer a week depending on maturity or about 30-50 deer a year. so it's safe to say the north kings herd in 1950 could have comfortably supported a static lion population of 100 (but probably was closer to about 25-50 just because of the culture at the time). OTH in 1988 the herd could only support about 5-10 w/o extincting the herd (keep in mind coyote, bobs, bear, and people were still preying on this herd). now as this herd declined and the newly protected cougar population increased between 1950-1988, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE COUGARS. granted some were killed in territorial fights and kittens & adolescent males were preyed on by adult males (including their own father at times) and many were killed by humans (probably for shifting prey base to include livestock), a LOT would have displaced to new territories w/ adequate prey populations (including suburban deer populations putting them in closer proximity to people). the simple lack of food almost certainly has a greater effect than any social strata changes caused by killing one big male out of dozens of cats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
Do you really believe that all of the following sources have a biased agenda? Come now. Then we can say that about anything, any subject that scientists are learning and showing us today. These are not a bunch of yahoo protesters, whining about killing animals. These are reputable sources. What are your reputable sources of biologists, scientists, researchers, statisticians, universities that specialize in this sort of thing like WSU that dispute the fact that hunting more cougars increases human/livestock conflict?
yes i do and when i have time i'll prove it from the sites themselves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
These are the scientists who, according to you, have an up in the clouds agenda. I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm sorry you are the type to reject education because you will remain ignorant. I'll highlight just a few:


WSU Department of Natural Resource Sciences

http://www.predatordefense.org/docs/...wsulab2012.pdf.
in this single page series of statements they blame human predation as the SOLE cause of the situations in question, w/o describing how they reached those conclusions, nor what alternate possible causes were reviewed and why such alternate causes were excluded in favor of human predation. again very possible failure of scientific method.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
Cougar predation key to ecosystem health

Oregon State University


http://www.predatordefense.org/docs/...y_10-24-06.pdf
HILARIOUS. national parks are by law barred from being hunted by anyone EXCEPT the park service may contract the USDA or other agency to remove overpopulations or problem animals. meaning this particular document is a perfect example of the end result of as close as possible to a total hands off management pratice. interestingly the end result is catstrophic population decline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
http://www.mountainlion.org/us/wa/-wa-portal.asp
Gary Koehler is Principle Investigator on Project CAT and has been employed by the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife as Wildlife Research Scientist since 1994......

[B]Robert B. Wielgus
Associate Professor and Director of the Large Carnivore Conservation Lab...Some of the articles are about other topics as well besides the cougar, but many of the authors, university departments, and researchers etc are the same.
and somehow all of this means they aren't human and won't misrepresent, misuse or exclude data to in order to support a predetermined conclusion that they feel strongly about.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/02/sc...pers.html?_r=3
Quote:
They found that misconduct was the reason for three-quarters of the retractions for which they could determine the cause.
Quote:
In July, for example, the Japanese Society of Anesthesiologists reported that Dr. Yoshitaka Fujii had falsified data in 172 papers. Most of those papers have yet to be officially retracted
Quote:
Dr. Casadevall disagreed. “It convinces me more that we have a problem in science,” he said.
While the fraudulent papers may be relatively few, he went on, their rapid increase is a sign of a winner-take-all culture in which getting a paper published in a major journal can be the difference between heading a lab and facing unemployment. “Some fraction of people are starting to cheat,” he said.
i wonder how eminent Dr Fujii's professional status was? yeah' ill get back w/ you on your sites this week end.
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  #60  
Old 10-03-2012, 08:37 AM
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I'm not going to argue with you anymore. That's just silly. You have your agenda, being a hunter, so naturally... I believe what I have read by universities, researchers, and what fish and game people told me when I lived in Idaho.

RedChrome, Any updates? I hope you and your neighbors stay safe.
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