Sibes and other northern breeds

[monkeys23]

Thanks Liz!

Speaking of self entertaining with socks, Scout was doing that the other morning. And if she's feeling insecure she pulls all my clothes out of the basket and lays on them. She's "special" lol.

Yeah thats a big reason I'll probably always go rescue with getting one. apparently asking for all three is requirements in a breeder is too hard. Heck I don't even care about showing... but like no working breeders health test. So eh, given how many get tossed away at all ages by owners who weren't prepared ... may as well just get more recycled ones down the line. Man, the day Lily figured out I wasn't going to dump her like her first owner did. That was an awesome day. Giant grin.

[frostfell]

Well then what breed would you guys recommend? I was pointed at some working line/DDR GSD and told to ask for a pet puppy in terms of drive, but all the breeders Iv looked at have dogs that are upwards of 90 lbs. I dont want a hardcore working dog, I just want a dog I can fiddle around with and do pulling or some other sport SOMETIMES. Not every weekend. Not competitively. Just more than my deadhead bullies.

I find show line shepherds unbelievably ugly, even the german show lines. I want a dog with a functional ass end, not a hyena. Redchromes Judge is a good example of a GSD body style I find acceptable, but his "type" is hardcore working lines and thats too much dog for me. And too big, most likely.

[~Dixie's_Mom~]

I say meet some Huskies. I don't think they sound like a bad choice for you. Watch some videos, talk to some owners, meet a few, watch them in action. They're crazy, that's for sure, but the right one could work for you. I think you would like Violet. She is up for grabs! (just kidding)

[monkeys23]

I've met showline dogs that weren't built extreme at all. And while I don't care for the saddleback coloring, thats small potatoes if you're getting a dog that fullfills other criteria. You gotta keep in mind that when they stack the dogs for photos they look way more extreme than they usually are.

As far as breeders local to me, I had the pleasure of meeting an evaluating a 2yr old GSD girl last fall when a family friend was dog hunting after her old GSD (Czech and West German working line) passed. I have to say I totally ate my words as far as showline dogs, I'd have been happy to live with that dog and she'd have been a nice club level sport dog. Real nice drive, really social, really moderately built, nice pigment. delightful personality, etc. We played with her toy and she outed perfectly for me and everything, but was still really animated and in the game. I'm sure she's in a pet home... the only reason she was up for rehome was the guy who bought her as a pup got engaged and his fiance is severely allergic. So don't discount all showline dogs right out of the gate. The right one might actually be a real nice starter GSD for you.
Looking at their website its easy to think ewww showline GSDs! But I was pleasantly surprised by the dog she produced that I met and played with. She's out of Carlee (West German showline) and the American showline male. While not nearly as extreme as a working line dog, she certainly wasn't lacking in drive and IMO would be plenty for someone looking to fart around with training.
http://www.animusgsd.com/contactus.html

I've met a few of Nancy's dog's too. They are pretty nice active dogs. I wouldn't go there if I say wanted to campaign and go to IPO nationals or something, but for an active pet owner dabbling in sports they are perfect. She's actually been kind enough to take the time to mentor me a bit over years despite showline GSD's not being my area of interest at all. She's kinda stopped being active in IPO because the club here has ridiculous infighting.
http://www.zederkamme.com/

If I were to step out and get a GSD today I'd probably talk to Red Chrome. But the other breeders up high on my list are as follows.
http://www.schraderhausk9.com/
http://www.vongrunheideshepherds.com/index.html
This is a long way from me, but I've heard nothing but good from puppy buyers on gsd boards: http://www.wildhauskennels.com/

Vom Banach is good too, she mostly breeds DDR dogs though I noticed she's bringing some WG back in the last year or so. http://vombanachk9.homestead.com/

Honestly I've been meeting dogs, talking to GSD people, and researching breed/lines since I adopted my first dog (who is GSD/Sibe) almost five years ago. It worth it to take your time and do the research and meeting dogs first. I turned down a few nice breeder rehomes right before I took Scout because I felt time wasn't right for a second yet, haha whoops guess Scout was meant to be here. She's actually got real nice drives for being a hoarding bust special and we have a lot of fun. I will say she was not suited to the pet only homes that came before me... I think if she'd been with someone who was GSD experienced from the get-go she'd have a lot less issues.

Go find your local IPO club and watch, meet some dogs, listen to the dog people yak at each other. If there is more than one club go to several.

Honestly it sounds like a nice West German showline dog from a reputable breeder would probably suit you best. Though I know thats not what you want to hear LOL.

[Equinox]

Monkeys, I was going to post a very snarky response to frostfell's uneducated "assessment" of the breed, but your words are much more kind and eloquent than mine would have been. I'm glad I read your post first, and want to thank you for such an informative and thoughtful reply!

I will respond with a few thoughts of my own in a moment.

[Lyzelle]

Originally Posted by frostfell

Well then what breed would you guys recommend? I was pointed at some working line/DDR GSD and told to ask for a pet puppy in terms of drive, but all the breeders Iv looked at have dogs that are upwards of 90 lbs. I dont want a hardcore working dog, I just want a dog I can fiddle around with and do pulling or some other sport SOMETIMES. Not every weekend. Not competitively. Just more than my deadhead bullies.

I find show line shepherds unbelievably ugly, even the german show lines. I want a dog with a functional ass end, not a hyena. Redchromes Judge is a good example of a GSD body style I find acceptable, but his "type" is hardcore working lines and thats too much dog for me. And too big, most likely.

Keep in mind that Sibes can get quite large, and Malamutes much larger still. Zander is around 25'', 70lbs. I'm 5'2'', and I can rest my hand palm-flat on his withers. He is quite a large dog, and he's not terribly uncommon. I've seen larger Sibes. Malamutes can reach mastiff proportions, easy. 30'' and over, 150lbs and over.

GSDs do come in a wide variety, a bit larger of a mental/physical variety than Sibes and Mals, and the bonus of better breeders, too. I wouldn't doubt that you could find a small(er) one that would fit your bill quite well. I was looking into them for a while, but I decided that I preferred a shorter coat and went RR.

Monkey's post was right on point.

[monkeys23]

Thanks Equinox! Also I should have listed Trent's breeder as a good WG working line one, doh! Love that pretty boy.

Yeah my 50/50 mix girl is a lot smaller than more than one purebred Sibe we've met/played with. Thanks Liz.

[Romy]

A reputable white GSD breeder may have something that would be a good fit too. They don't have the extreme drives of border patrol lines, and their conformation tends to be a lot less extreme as well. Just be careful when researching breeders since being a color variant strain, there are some really mucky BYBers that don't health or temperament test. Most of the BYB ones go for giant size as well, so you'd be more likely to find the dog you want in a reputable breeder as well.

eta: check out berger blanc suisse

[Equinox]

A few thoughts of my own regarding the breed:

Originally Posted by frostfell

I dont want d/a or h/a.

Depending on your understanding and definition of human aggression, a German Shepherd Dog may not be for you. GSDs are absolutely an aggressive breed, but aggression typically carries a more negative connotation and has been portrayed as a negative breed trait more often than not. If you want a dog without an aggressive bone in his body, then I strongly recommend you steer clear of the breed.

Originally Posted by frostfell

Indifference is fine, dangerous behavior is not.

I have often seen dangerous behaviors come as a result of a poor management and understanding of the breed’s innate instincts and drives, so I think this could go either way. Is a Shepherd capable of exhibiting dangerous behaviors? Absolutely. Is it preventable or manageable in a mature, well bred dog of solid nerve? In my opinion, yes, though this will depend on the individual dog.

Originally Posted by frostfell

I want something not prone to the drama and hysterics and screaming and wimpyness that the GSD seems prone to.

It’s very interesting – and unfortunate – that this has been your experience with the breed. I can easily say that my own has been the very opposite, and I’ve met a wide range of German Shepherds from all types of breedings. I do not deny at all that the breed has many issues as a whole, but in person, all the German Shepherds I have met have been stable, self possessed, and enjoyable to be around.

Originally Posted by frostfell

I want something built in a way that it stays sound well into 10+ years. Obedience isnt so important as long as I can get some basics, loose lead walking, pay attention to me, any kind of recall at all (like in the freaking house or yard), and training for weightpulling. Im looking for the calmest most confident male puppy, the thinker, the one that isnt too fussed with anything, unflappable, curious, not dramatic or timid. Not physically calm like doesnt run or want to play, but personality calm. If a car backfires out front or I drop a pot on the floor, or I need to trim his nails, I dont want drama. That kind of calm.

Sounds like my German Shepherd and almost every other German Shepherd I have met. I will say that there are some that do not have loose leash walking down quite yet (including mine under certain circumstances), but that’s more a matter of training priority than anything else. Some lines are better for precision or flashy obedience, but all have been capable of obeying basic commands well and possess very biddable personalities and an eagerness to work.

At home, my dog is so absurdly calm that he’s boring. He’s hilarious when we’re out and going through a training or play session, though.

Originally Posted by frostfell

I find show line shepherds unbelievably ugly, even the german show lines. I want a dog with a functional ass end, not a hyena. Redchromes Judge is a good example of a GSD body style I find acceptable, but his "type" is hardcore working lines and thats too much dog for me. And too big, most likely.

There are much less offensive ways to voice that opinion, and I’m going to follow Monkeys’ example and try to respond a bit more diplomatically than I would have otherwise. If you’re going to make uneducated and broad blanket statements like this, please be more considerate in your wording. I am a working dog person through and through and have met showlines (German and American) with excellent work ethic and structure – dogs that I would be proud to own. And I know their handlers, owners, and breeders take great pride in these dogs as well and would NOT appreciate such a snide comment.

Originally Posted by monkeys23

I've met showline dogs that weren't built extreme at all. You gotta keep in mind that when they stack the dogs for photos they look way more extreme than they usually are.

Excellent point, monkeys! I would be more than happy to provide examples of how the way a dog is stacked can affect the overall appearance to those not familiar with the breed, and/or assessing conformation and structure.

Originally Posted by monkeys23

Looking at their website its easy to think ewww showline GSDs! But I was pleasantly surprised by the dog she produced that I met and played with. She's out of Carlee (West German showline) and the American showline male. While not nearly as extreme as a working line dog, she certainly wasn't lacking in drive and IMO would be plenty for someone looking to fart around with training.
http://www.animusgsd.com/contactus.html

I am such a fan of American/German showline crosses! My neighbor’s German Shepherd is a lovely, balanced, American x German showline dog of excellent conformation and temperament. There is also a breeder in Oregon who has stunning German/American dogs (in appearance, at the very least – I have not had the fortune to meet any in person yet).

http://www.fairwayshepherds.com/

Originally Posted by monkeys23

I've met a few of Nancy's dog's too. They are pretty nice active dogs. I wouldn't go there if I say wanted to campaign and go to IPO nationals or something, but for an active pet owner dabbling in sports they are perfect. She's actually been kind enough to take the time to mentor me a bit over years despite showline GSD's not being my area of interest at all. She's kinda stopped being active in IPO because the club here has ridiculous infighting.
http://www.zederkamme.com/

There is a woman on the German Shepherd forum I frequent who has a Zeder Kamme dog. I hear the breeder is a lovely lady to talk to, and that she has gorgeous dogs. The woman on the forum’s pup will be a year soon and he is just gorgeous, although he has a possibly neurological medical issue affecting his back legs primarily. I forgot his breeding, but his temperament is just stellar and he is excelling in bitework.

Originally Posted by monkeys23

Vom Banach is good too, she mostly breeds DDR dogs though I noticed she's bringing some WG back in the last year or so. http://vombanachk9.homestead.com/

A quick comment on vom Banach – I love the dogs and lines she breeds and works with, but you’ll have to be very, very clear about the type of dog you want and the type of dog you are willing to handle. She produces dogs of varying drives, thresholds, and temperaments and sometimes will match a dog that is too much for the owner/handler.

This goes for MANY other breeders, so this is also general advice for when someone’s talking to breeders and choosing between litters and kennels.

Originally Posted by monkeys23

Honestly it sounds like a nice West German showline dog from a reputable breeder would probably suit you best. Though I know thats not what you want to hear LOL.

I actually had the same thought. A West German showline Shepherd sounds like a better fit than a working line German Shepherd at this point. A bit of a generalization, to be sure, but they do tend to work more naturally in prey/play and are overall more amiable and easier going. Not that they are easier to raise or are lower in drive, but I know more working lines to be confrontational (and often subtly so, which can be more difficult) than show lines.

Originally Posted by monkeys23

Thanks Equinox! Also I should have listed Trent's breeder as a good WG working line one, doh! Love that pretty boy.

Thank you! I’m very happy with the dog I got from Ray, and feel so thrilled to have Trent as a part of my life each and every day. He is a great dog with the right personality for all the right moments, and just the drive and intuition I want in a dog.

Trent’s breeder actually has working lines and show lines at his kennel, I don’t think he is particular about type so long as the dog is a good working dog. I think currently he has a show line male standing stud at his kennel, and a show line bitch. I’ve been just as impressed with the show lines and show/working lines he breeds, as I have been with the working lines.

[frostfell]

Offensive or not, its MY BLOODY OPINION. I specifically said " I find _____ ugly" and "_____ is acceptable to me". And my opinion is not uneducated, unless of course talking to GSD owners and breeders and doing research for the last year and a half counts as "uneducated" -eye roll- I refuse to own a dog that I find hideous, regardless of whether someone else likes that look or not. Im not them. Im not you. So you think the show line dogs can be beautiful, fine, wonderful, good for you. I dont share that opinion. And I wont apologize for it. Having preferences isnt hurting anything

And those same GSD owners, two of which know me extremely well and know the kind of dog Im looking for, have told ME that working line/ddr shepherds are going to be TOO MUCH DOG FOR ME. I trust their judgement, hence, being stuck in bind as far as GSD goes. I hate the show line look, the working line temperament hates me.

So unless theres a magical in-between solution to that, Im afraid I just cannot seriously consider the GSD for myself.