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Old 03-25-2013, 06:38 PM
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Ok, I get the health testing, but why is it wrong for a breeder to not do anything except work with their dogs?
I have no problem with a breeder "only" working their dogs IRL situations if they are doing all appropriate health tests. I have a problem when they aren't health testing and think just because the dog can work, it should be bred. I apologize if I miscommunication what I thought there?
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:39 PM
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I just wanted to say that I disagree with ^this. I am pro clicker training, for both horses AND dogs. However, it is not the only tool I use for either. When you talk about not being close minded to new options, that means you have to be open to anything (within reason). Have you tried clicker training with horses? Would it work for every situation? No, it wouldn't. However, it could work very well for teaching to accept the halter, teaching to lead, teaching to square up, teaching to accept a bridle, a saddle, probably a lot of desensitization. There are so many options for teaching everything! As long as you are creating a positive environment, there is no reason that more than one thing cannot work. One size does not fit all with ANY animal.
I agree with this. I do think in most situations and with most animals clicker training is perfectly viable and will absolutely work. Potentially other methods will work faster... it's an interesting scientific discussion on that though. One that scientists have been having for a long time, LOL.
But definitely yes, the bolded part, I agree!
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  #4243  
Old 03-25-2013, 06:51 PM
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I agree with this. I do think in most situations and with most animals clicker training is perfectly viable and will absolutely work. Potentially other methods will work faster... it's an interesting scientific discussion on that though. One that scientists have been having for a long time, LOL.
But definitely yes, the bolded part, I agree!
The only aspect that I don't see clicker work doing an effective job is with riding, UNLESS you use rest as the reward. Then I think it could work fantastically.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:14 PM
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Do you have many cattle ranches up there? We are not talking one or two "pet" cows the owners have & borrow someone's bull so they can have a baby to but he their own meat every once & a while ... I am talking about hundreds sometimes thousands of acres of land with hundreds of BEEF cattle.
Yes, we do. There are two or three beef operations within my small cluster of towns, and lots of dairy farms. Plenty of cows here. Not many use dogs anymore, they use ATVs and clever fencing now. I lived in Florida and Texas as well, which have plenty of cows too.

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And on the subject of working breeder and not health testing. I agree with crazed. Just because a dog comes from working parents does NOT mean the dog shouldn't be health tested for things that COMMONLY GO WRONG IN THE BREED. For example, ACD's. Since they are "my" breed, and I've done hours and hours of research on them, I will hit them. Progressive Retinal Atrophy, hips, knees, and hearing are ALL things that should be health tested. Just because a dog can work it's a$$ off with cattle doesn't mean that it is healthy in all these areas. He could have super poor hips, but because the breed is tough as nails, never really show it until they fail miserably. He could be a carrier for PRA, and be bred to a carrier or PRA, but because they didn't health test for PRA, NOBODY KNEW and now you are going to end up with a litter stock freakin' full of carriers and PRA affected dogs. And guess what? YOU CAN'T WORK CATTLE EFFECTIVELY WITH A BLIND DOG. Also, just because a dog can work cattle fantastically doesn't mean they have a stable temperament. Good breeders breed to better the breed in all aspects, and choose dogs who bring something to the table that the mate doesn't excel in, or has a compliment to a conformation weakness.

I'm not saying that every single breeder who breeds un-tested dogs are terrible and should end up in hell and can't produce a good dog. However, they are still BYB, and if you are dog knowledgeable, it is still pretty darn unacceptable in most cases to buy from them. Also, it is not impossible (in the breed I am specifically talking about especially) to find a breeder who has stellar working dogs who are health tested.

Sorry this became a book.
Absolutely. Especially with a popular breed where there are people managing to do it 'right' already. I would consider any person that breeds ACDs without health testing a BYB. Romeo is from a BYB. He has PRA. He is totally blind in low light. He kind of makes my point here. He will turn seven in June and he isn't good for any 'work' at this point. I was delving into herding when I really came to grips with the fact he is going blind, and decided it wasn't safe to continue with it. What good is that to anyone? Simple DNA test ensures if you breed the right dogs, the puppies will not get this disease. Seems like a no brainer to me.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:19 PM
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Sorry but I have to say I agree, I don't want a 1000 lb animal all up in my business.
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Oh I know it works, I just don't feel comfortable using it with horses.
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When it "works" you dont have a "1000 lb animal up in your business".....that is NOT how clicker training works which is why people are going back to you not understanding clicker training
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:25 PM
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The only aspect that I don't see clicker work doing an effective job is with riding, UNLESS you use rest as the reward. Then I think it could work fantastically.
That's what Clinton essentially does, he uses rest as the reward, he makes a certain desired spot (I.e. the middle of the pen, if working on trailering the "rest spot" would be inside or near the trailer. If the horse moves away they must work.

It's the same when I teach dogs/puppies to lead, I just kneel down & wait for them to stop fighting & "come off the pressure" even one step forward is rewards with slack ... Just like a horse lol
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:51 PM
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Yes, we do. There are two or three beef operations within my small cluster of towns, and lots of dairy farms. Plenty of cows here. Not many use dogs anymore, they use ATVs and clever fencing now. I lived in Florida and Texas as well, which have plenty of cows too.



Absolutely. Especially with a popular breed where there are people managing to do it 'right' already. I would consider any person that breeds ACDs without health testing a BYB. Romeo is from a BYB. He has PRA. He is totally blind in low light. He kind of makes my point here. He will turn seven in June and he isn't good for any 'work' at this point. I was delving into herding when I really came to grips with the fact he is going blind, and decided it wasn't safe to continue with it. What good is that to anyone? Simple DNA test ensures if you breed the right dogs, the puppies will not get this disease. Seems like a no brainer to me.
Huh? I have known dogs who are tested for PRA & deafness who still produce pups with PRA/deafness ... Testing doesn't 100% rule out genetic effects it lessens their occurrence.

Yes testing is better then not testing, but let not pretend that those who do are immune to genetic defects.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:12 PM
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Huh? I have known dogs who are tested for PRA & deafness who still produce pups with PRA/deafness ... Testing doesn't 100% rule out genetic effects it lessens their occurrence.

Yes testing is better then not testing, but let not pretend that those who do are immune to genetic defects.
No one is saying they are immune, simply that they are breeding responsibly, and not like your breeder.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:13 PM
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:36 PM
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