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  #41  
Old 08-23-2012, 11:35 PM
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I've found removing the dog to not work for mine, it does help our sanity though. I am comfortable with giving any method a shot, you never know what will work for what dog in which exercise until you try.
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  #42  
Old 08-24-2012, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I don't think it's profound to believe that training, in any form, is a choice.
I wouldn't think so, but then people continuously imply that their hands are tied and their specific dog REQUIRES the use of force.
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  #43  
Old 08-24-2012, 07:56 AM
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In order to achieve a certain goal I 'must' use what works best for my dog. All 4 of mine are so drastically different, not to mention clients, that I can't agree that one method fits all.
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  #44  
Old 08-24-2012, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I can't quote my own post on my phone but I think I specifically said " unwilling to train" due to being uncomfortable with causing discomfort, and so forth.
To me, that just translates to unwilling to train. She wouldn't have to cause her dogs discomfort to train them if she was committed to the idea of training them. There's lots and lots of ways to train a dog.

I don't think it's profound to believe that training, in any form, is a choice.


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The helper dropping the sleeve and walking away works wonderfully on Backup bailing on a search and heading into a live blind, Sloan however looks at the sleeve and laughs maniacally before charging in and launching to bite the helper. Flesh > Sleeve, nom.
You don't know what the possibilities would have been with training Sloan without the use of e-collars if she had been with a person committed to laying her foundation in a way that she wouldn't "need" the tool later on. I'm not saying you're wrong for choosing the e-collar, I think you're in the majority in your sport who do so. Just that there are always a lot of options and a lot of paths to choose with dog training. It used to be that everyone believed you couldn't train a reliable retrieve for competition obedience without an ear pinch. Some people still believe that but others did not want to their dog to "need" an ear pinch to continue training for obedience, so now there's plenty of people who are successful with other methods.

I think this is an excellent blog post on the subject: http://susangarrettdogagility.com/20...-dog-training/
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  #45  
Old 08-24-2012, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
In order to achieve a certain goal I 'must' use what works best for my dog. All 4 of mine are so drastically different, not to mention clients, that I can't agree that one method fits all.
Again, it's not about a singular method. I certainly don't think one can refer to the entire body of reward-based training as "one method." There are 1 million and 1 ways to set up a scenario that will allow a dog to be successful and allow him to be rewarded without using compulsion... Though it often takes quite a bit of thinking outside the box.

Whether or not all the thinking outside the box and the potentially tedious work is worth it to you and your clients is a choice you have to make. And I say that on no high horse, honestly. I have, on occasion, felt that it was the right choice myself - but I guess I would never use the word "must," to describe it, personally. That's all.

ETA: So sorry this is a late edit, but let me put it this way. Almost everyone I've ever known who uses compulsion regularly believes that each and every correction was necessary. My FB friend who trains crank and yank, toting her soft-natured bitch around by a choke and snapping her into a down so hard the dog cringes and rolls over? Believes that's totally necessary to train the dog. All the people at the AKC clubs I go to? They totally believe it's necessary to thump the dog in the chest for moving on the SFE, or you'll never have a solid stand-stay.

My point is that most people using compulsion believes it's necessary, and I have seen, over and over again, that they do it when things could have easily been done another way. I'm beyond certain that you (Adrianne) are a lot more skilled than that, so I'm not at all suggesting you do things like that (those are just some really painful examples, lol), but nonetheless my point is that it's really difficult to say when, if ever, compulsion becomes "necessary." The handlers applying it will almost always define it as so.
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  #46  
Old 08-24-2012, 09:50 AM
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While at field dog training on Wednesday, it was absolutely bewildering how many people intentionally set their dogs up to fail. Rather than work to systematically make the dog successful and build on those successes, I saw more than a handful of trainers just fighting tooth and nail with their dogs about sitting at the line. Why not actually work with less valuable things and actually teach the dog what you want?
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  #47  
Old 08-24-2012, 10:06 AM
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Every dog and trainer require different methods. My dog would not do well with a PP trainer.

When it comes to someone getting bit on the field, I want to be able to correct the dog quickly,efficiently and clearly.
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  #48  
Old 08-24-2012, 11:36 AM
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I'm beyond certain I am more creative as well, thanks. I do however fully support the use of corrections and aversions for certain aspects of life.

My sport is actually more agility these days. I have no need for an ecollar here but corrections still exist be it being put up, a stern down stay, denial of the reward, or choose your own adventure. I have however seen the collar use to be extremely valid in our bitework, for my dogs the drive is no where near the same and we're comfortable with that.

I am comfortable disagreeing when it is said there is no point where a dog should have to worry about their choices.

It's very easy to look at a dog and say, "I could do better". I would have looked at a dog like Backup with joy before I got him, most people love him and his bubblingly ridiculous drive but when faced with training him (hands on, the internet is always right) it's almost comical how many cringe and back away.
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  #49  
Old 08-24-2012, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
Defining poorly done positive training as "love, hugs and cookies method" is about as unfair as implying everyone who uses e-collars is using them like SMS. Being too permissive and/or inconsistent is a common mistake people make training dogs regardless of which methods they prefer. If a method is used improperly, inconsistently and without skill you can't really blame the method if the results are poor, inconsistent and lacking.
Good point. I know several people who will never be without the band aid of the prong for walking because their dog knows who is really in charge and its not the human.
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  #50  
Old 08-24-2012, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Emily View Post
Again, it's not about a singular method. I certainly don't think one can refer to the entire body of reward-based training as "one method." There are 1 million and 1 ways to set up a scenario that will allow a dog to be successful and allow him to be rewarded without using compulsion... Though it often takes quite a bit of thinking outside the box.

Whether or not all the thinking outside the box and the potentially tedious work is worth it to you and your clients is a choice you have to make. And I say that on no high horse, honestly. I have, on occasion, felt that it was the right choice myself - but I guess I would never use the word "must," to describe it, personally. That's all.

ETA: So sorry this is a late edit, but let me put it this way. Almost everyone I've ever known who uses compulsion regularly believes that each and every correction was necessary. My FB friend who trains crank and yank, toting her soft-natured bitch around by a choke and snapping her into a down so hard the dog cringes and rolls over? Believes that's totally necessary to train the dog. All the people at the AKC clubs I go to? They totally believe it's necessary to thump the dog in the chest for moving on the SFE, or you'll never have a solid stand-stay.

My point is that most people using compulsion believes it's necessary, and I have seen, over and over again, that they do it when things could have easily been done another way. I'm beyond certain that you (Adrianne) are a lot more skilled than that, so I'm not at all suggesting you do things like that (those are just some really painful examples, lol), but nonetheless my point is that it's really difficult to say when, if ever, compulsion becomes "necessary." The handlers applying it will almost always define it as so.
This reminds me of what I saw between a friend and his four month old puppy last night. Sure it behaves pretty well, but it also nearly submissive peed everywhere while he was interacting with it...

He flipped out when I said before they even got it that he should have a crate ready for it. Surprise, surprise he gets mad at it every time it does puppy things like chew stuff up, have accidents, etc. He's letting it do stuff like crash over furnititure, letting it jump up, picking it up and carry him every where, tear up the yard, and generally giving it no guidelines at all.... yeah thats gonna be real cute when he's an 80lb adolescent dog.

And the jerk is always bragging about how smart and good his puppy is like its better than everyone elses and his abusive methods are the best because they always work. Right.
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