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  #31  
Old 08-23-2012, 08:15 PM
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I don't think I referred badly to positive training at all, I referred to someone who is unwilling to train because they are uncomfortable with causing discomfort to their dog in any sense. I didn't mean to say they are a PP trainer, if you took it that way I apologize for the confusion.
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  #32  
Old 08-23-2012, 08:50 PM
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I laughed at Adrienne I have ecollars in with clickers. My Jeep has a bag that's got my ecollars and remotes and then all of my clickers and haltis in it. Plus various food items.

We also get business because of SMS. There's a right and a wrong way to use just about every dog training tool there is.

I've run into clients, and we have one right now actually, who are ADAMANT that they do NOT want to use a prong collar on their dog. But they're totally okay with putting an ecollar on the dog. I don't see the logic? Most of it is misinformation, some of it is probably because a prong looks scary, and then some of it is just ignorance. And I don't mean that in a bad way. But you can pop a dog with an ecollar way harder than you could ever correct a dog with a prong, so it's just ????

I choose to use an ecollar because no amount of withholding cookies is going to stop him from wanting the sleeve. No amount of cookies is going make him hold and down with the helper facing off with him and he knows that he's going to get sent for a bite in a minute. I know that it can be done positively, though I haven't ever seen it myself, but Knox is a lot more "tell me what you want me to do" than he is "let me figure this out myself"

He makes a **** poor Nosework dog because he is constantly looking for feedback. It may be the way I trained him, it may just be the kind of dog he is. Indy is being trained the same way he is/was, and she's excelling at scent work and tracking, whereas Knox gets frustrated and just starts knocking boxes over.

Anyways, that's just my take on it. I didn't understand the hand in the mouth thing either? But all of my dogs either knew how to retrieve, and had no problems fetching a dumbbell, or I shaped them to retrieve (Enzo, actually, the Labrador RETRIEVER, had to be taught to fetch lmao) none of which involved me putting anything in their mouth and shocking them.
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:17 PM
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Ugh, I have a client right now who walked and looked at a lab (4 year old, best shape I've met, high anxiety but an amazingly devoted owner) with a prong and cringed. I WOULD NEVER!! Okay, so, what can I do for you? Well, we're planning on putting our 7 month old lab/rott/mastiff to sleep because he doesn't listen and he bites too much.

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  #34  
Old 08-23-2012, 09:57 PM
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Pretty much any training tool can be abused and use of it improperly/excessively can be inhumane certainly.

The prong - paired with training - has been great in teaching Katalin. It makes things much more black and white for her and communication very clear.

I try to teach that if desired behavior is shown, correct manners displayed etc - great stuff happens, treats and praise and pets galore. However - I won't be tolerant of dicking around, disrespect, or foolish behavior either. It's not intimidation, threats, or anything nasty - it's simply a correction when needed.

The totally positive method of training where you just ignore or leave the dog alone after they've done something wrong is...erm...well, every dog is an individual so I'll leave it at that.

An example is Katalin several months back - she was lunging, jumping, biting and growling at me randomly on walks. The trainers advice of tying her to a tree or turning my back on her didn't help an iota. I redirected her through jogging and it did help - I was unsure of giving her a leash correction as it wasn't "positive" as my previous trainer had told me to be. But the behavior halted altogether after I gave her abit of a yank. We are still on the positive side of things - but it's much clearer to her now that I will not put up with any bs.
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  #35  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:32 PM
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The thing that gets me is the misunderstanding that with positive reinforcement training is that there are no consequences whats so ever. There is, however I choose not to use harsh corrections, but that by no means that once a dog has fully learned and been proofed on something that if the dog choices to ignore that all is good. Not on your life.
I have a problem when trainers put prongs on puppies, ridiculous. That is like using a hammer to kill a fly. And I firmly believe that most people don't have the skill and education to use them properly. Having said that, I have seen just as many ppl use a flat collar as a weapon and that isn't right either
Ecollars? again for the most part they are abused and used by the uneducated and without discretion. And no I don't own one or use them
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I don't think I referred badly to positive training at all, I referred to someone who is unwilling to train because they are uncomfortable with causing discomfort to their dog in any sense. I didn't mean to say they are a PP trainer, if you took it that way I apologize for the confusion.
It sounds like your friend in this scenario isn't doing much training at all though? She just avoids training by leaving the dogs at home so she doesn't have to deal with them behaving like untrained dogs?

This is the situation with many pet owners sadly enough. Their dog pulls so they stop walking them. The dog isn't behaved loose in the house for 9 hours a day by 6 months so they are banished to one room or the basement or the backyard. The dog gets carsick, so they stop taking them in the car. Dog doesn't like being brushed, so they let them get matted and take them to the groomer. I have talked to people who wanted to surrender their dog to the shelter because the dog steals food, doesn't come when called, gets into the garbage, etc, etc. Given easy problem solving solutions, some were able to work things out but some refused to try even the most basic non-aversive management for the problems.

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Originally Posted by CharlieDog View Post


I choose to use an ecollar because no amount of withholding cookies is going to stop him from wanting the sleeve. No amount of cookies is going make him hold and down with the helper facing off with him and he knows that he's going to get sent for a bite in a minute. I know that it can be done positively, though I haven't ever seen it myself, but Knox is a lot more "tell me what you want me to do" than he is "let me figure this out myself"
Withholding cookies would be a pretty silly way to attempt to use positive training in bitework. Really there is so, so much more to positive training then giving treats for being good and withholding treats for being bad. That is Petsmart style positive training and barely scratches the surface of the possibilities.
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  #37  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:38 PM
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I think humans require force to train, not dogs. And I don't mean that as an insult, I just mean that the factors that lead me to use force have much more to do with myself and my real-life limitations than the dog. I own a prong although I don't know where it is, and I also own a Dogtra. Used both and both can be very helpful in certain situations. But I don't believe that the dog makes me do it or that I "have" to do it. It's a choice.


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=
I choose to use an ecollar because no amount of withholding cookies is going to stop him from wanting the sleeve. No amount of cookies is going make him hold and down with the helper facing off with him and he knows that he's going to get sent for a bite in a minute. I know that it can be done positively, though I haven't ever seen it myself, but Knox is a lot more "tell me what you want me to do" than he is "let me figure this out myself"
No one with any sort of skill would tell you that "withholding cookies" is the way to get him to those things. That is not what good positive training is about. To suggest so is just... skimming the surface of what positive training is. Any capable trainer would realize that what is motivating Knox in those scenarios is the sleeve, and would then redesign the scenario in such a way to set him up for success and reward him with the bite. I imagine that to do so would take quite a bit of skill and knowledge but it's certainly possible (I know of at least two SCHIII dogs trained without force) - and goes far beyond "withholding cookies".

That perception/grave misunderstanding of the basis of positive training drives me nuts. I'm not bothered by the thoughtful, careful use of aversives but I am bothered by the idea that all positive trainers do is doll out and take away the ever-derogatory "cookies."
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  #38  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:47 PM
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No, and that's not what I meant either. I know how to use marker training, and do quite a bit of it. That was my fault for simplifying it so... something.

Anyway. Not exactly how I meant it. My bad.

And I've tried quite a few creative ways to avoid using punishment with him. Some of them work. Some of them dont.
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  #39  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
It sounds like your friend in this scenario isn't doing much training at all though? .
I can't quote my own post on my phone but I think I specifically said " unwilling to train" due to being uncomfortable with causing discomfort, and so forth.

I don't think it's profound to believe that training, in any form, is a choice.

Sloan is motivated by the adrenaline rush of the charge, bite, and fight.

The helper dropping the sleeve and walking away works wonderfully on Backup bailing on a search and heading into a live blind, Sloan however looks at the sleeve and laughs maniacally before charging in and launching to bite the helper. Flesh > Sleeve, nom.
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  #40  
Old 08-23-2012, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I can't quote my own post on my phone but I think I specifically said " unwilling to train" due to being uncomfortable with causing discomfort, and so forth.

I don't think it's profound to believe that training, in any form, is a choice.

Sloan is motivated by the adrenaline rush of the charge, bite, and fight.

The helper dropping the sleeve and walking away works wonderfully on Backup bailing on a search and heading into a live blind, Sloan however looks at the sleeve and laughs maniacally before charging in and launching to bite the helper. Flesh > Sleeve, nom.
Knox also doesn't care. It's not the sleeve he really wants. Given the chance/choice, he'd much rather grab a leg or something soft and squishy.


What we do/ have done, is he leaves the field if he breaks. Goes back into the crate, or the back of the Jeep. It's not perfect, and if he breaks, he's over threshold so quickly it's ridiculous.
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