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  #21  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:09 AM
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I have always hated the idea of causing dogs pain, discomfort, intimidation in order to train them.
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  #22  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:17 AM
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That is fair, you're definitely not in the minority so don't sweat it, then on the flip side there are times that correction is warranted and the use of e collars can be extremely helpful.

I just hate the idea of throwing a tool out due to misuse by some.

We all know there are people who've damaged their dogs using GLs & Haltis but I use them at work daily and have yet to hurt a dog.

I also have a training friend who leaves her dog in the house/yard almost all day every day because she can't control the dog outside of the home and refuses to use any corrective measures beyond the love, hugs, & cookies method.

Truthfully every tool/method can be flawed in the wrong hands, it's balance that work in most every aspect of life IMO.
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  #23  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:34 AM
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Well I've worked with some pretty difficult cases and have never had to use an e collar on a dog to modify behavior there are too many successful trainers who don't use electricity on animals...even animals that are not as biddable. One of my mares was quite advanced in her training. Electric shock would have sent her to the moon. Lol!
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  #24  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:41 AM
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We don't use them for behavioral modification, most of the time that is the wrong choice.

Most in sports use them for distance control in bitework, where the bite itself is self gratifying, and field trials, again where the distance denies hands on and the retrieve itself gratifies more than a withheld reward. It's all in the proofing, not the training, but it's definitely a to-each-their-own subject as long as you're not making wild claims that anyone who owns an ecollar is abusive.

I laughed pretty hard with a friend last weekend while she was picking up half of my garage for rescue donations and she opened a drawer to find ecollars and clickers stored together. The painful irony of my life, they won't know where to send me when I die.
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  #25  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:51 AM
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I guess I have sort of a hippy philosophy about our role in the lives of animals we keep for our enjoyment...a different place where the line is drawn...what is necessary or not. I just don't believe in electric shock for animals. But that's just me and my own feelings about these precious creatures.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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Last edited by Doberluv; 08-23-2012 at 11:04 AM.
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  #26  
Old 08-23-2012, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post


We all know there are people who've damaged their dogs using GLs & Haltis but I use them at work daily and have yet to hurt a dog.

I also have a training friend who leaves her dog in the house/yard almost all day every day because she can't control the dog outside of the home and refuses to use any corrective measures beyond the love, hugs, & cookies method.

Truthfully every tool/method can be flawed in the wrong hands, it's balance that work in most every aspect of life IMO.
I totally agree with this....BUT, (and NOT saying anyone who uses an e-collar is wrong and using them correctly is vastly different from using them like SMS) the difference is misusing a halti or GL etc, yes, can hurt a dog. An e-collars function is to hurt a dog. Yes, I know people claim that it just buzzes, or its just a "tickle" but obviously it hurts enough to be a correction or it wouldnt work.

The lady who cant control her dog...not using corrections isnt her problem. Many people who dont use physical corrections have dogs with wonderful house manners, she is just not doing anything to train. I know people who do use corrections and ecollars and the like and have no control...its poor execution or not understanding motivation etc.

Balance is key...but balance doenst have to include corrections to be balance. Showing what you do want, managing and redirecting what you dont want, having rules, etc...those are all part of balance.

(and again, I am not trying to debate training styles etc...its just I see similar sentiment often and dont think its true. If you want to use corrections in certain situations, or an ecollar, fine, but its NOT needed, especially in things like bitework etc that has nothing to so with living with the dog and everything to do with what we want from the dog for us)
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  #27  
Old 08-23-2012, 11:49 AM
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No worries, I am very comfortable with having extremely happy dogs and using ecollars for selective aspects of training. To each their own, I believe in balanced training and I believe there are times where a correction is warranted as the consequence for an action and I believe the level of correction should change per dog per exercise.

The system falls apart when you're forcing a dog into an action, before they understand, with discomfort, no matter if it's hands on or with a correction collar. Which unfortunately is the model which SMS follows.
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  #28  
Old 08-23-2012, 01:08 PM
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I agree with Adrianne and think she's done a really good job of explaining why they are useful in certain situations.

I've honestly not had to use them because well I have rescues and we are nowhere near that far along in training because of that. Next dog I probably will have to use one for proofing distance work.

I think its kind of like saying all people who tie their dogs out or all people who crate are abusive. Its just not true, these things are just tools and its how you use them (or don't) that makes it productive and detrimental.
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  #29  
Old 08-23-2012, 01:54 PM
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You mean before the dog understands but when he understands and he doesn't do it he's just being stubborn, right...so an aversive seems warranted. See...to me understands doesn't matter. The fact is if he did it right a few times but doesn't do it this time, he is needing more practice, not an aversive. Stubborn, willful, all that human stuff doesn't apply to dogs. They just need more instances of reinforcement. Jmo
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #30  
Old 08-23-2012, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Lol we joke it's surgically attached to his hand. Again it's morbid humor but at ISE in Vegas last winter we watched a trainer sans dog walking with a remote in his hand and we swore we saw some flinching of the thumb as if it felt unnatural to not be clicking it.
Wouldn't surprise me one bit! There is a SMS video on Youtube of an 8 year old girl working a Mal, remote in hand of course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
The things that get me are the collars (duh) they use sport dog collars which suck. They also use 1 size fits all unless they've changed recently, so I've seen paps with boxes as big as their heads hanging off the neck. And lastly, they move to the belly/groin when the neck is no longer sensitive enough. At that point buddy, you're a schmuck.
I always thought they used Dogtra! I know someone online who got into e-collars after working with Fred Hassen and she was a big Dogtra supporter. I'm kinda surprised they use crappy collars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post

I also have a training friend who leaves her dog in the house/yard almost all day every day because she can't control the dog outside of the home and refuses to use any corrective measures beyond the love, hugs, & cookies method.
Defining poorly done positive training as "love, hugs and cookies method" is about as unfair as implying everyone who uses e-collars is using them like SMS. Being too permissive and/or inconsistent is a common mistake people make training dogs regardless of which methods they prefer. If a method is used improperly, inconsistently and without skill you can't really blame the method if the results are poor, inconsistent and lacking.
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