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  #11  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:48 PM
Saeleofu Saeleofu is offline
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I use a mix of a lot of different methods. What I will use in a given situation depends on the dog, the behavior, the setting, ultimate goals, etc. I will not tie myself to one method because not every dog responds to the same method.
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  #12  
Old 08-13-2012, 02:58 PM
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I don't have a philosophy... I'm 100% self taught. Lots and lots of bad habits, lots and lots to learn. Mainly just try and have fun... and Bodhi is a good sport.
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  #13  
Old 08-13-2012, 03:01 PM
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With Gusto, it is pretty close to 100% free shaping. He 'gets' the game so well. It is occasionally frustrating, because he gets rather creative when he thinks we are playing the game and we aren't (like when I stop to discuss something with my trainer in agility, and look over to see him trying put his hind feet on the jump bar), but he keeps everyone in hysterics.

Meg doesn't do as well with free shaping, because she gets worried about being wrong and shuts down if she doesn't get the "right" answer quickly. For her, a bit of luring to get her on the right track keeps her in the game. She's probably more like 60% free shaped/40% lured.
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  #14  
Old 08-13-2012, 03:23 PM
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I lure pretty much everything. I hate hate hate free shaping if I actually have something I'm trying to achieve. I only shape if it's a for fun, "I really don't have anything specific I want to work on" training session.

For some obedience things I'll use corrections once I know she gets what it means. 95% of the things I teach though, I don't really care how reliable she is.
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  #15  
Old 08-13-2012, 03:45 PM
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I free shape "just for fun" things with Dance. For more formal things, and with the Dobermans, I tend to lure probably 90% of the time. I hate free shaping with the Dobermans. Neither one seems to get it and I run out of patience just watching them sit there and do nothing but drool for a possible treat. But if I'd done shaping more with them as puppies they might be better at it... even back then though, they just were so beyond slow to catch on that that's why I ended up just luring pretty much everything.

With my next puppy, I plan on taking a much more relaxed approach to training and plan on shaping a lot now that I've learned more about it. I've become a much better (and more patient) trainer over the past two years even, and there are a few things I wish I'd known then so that I could've done things better with all three of my dogs when they were younger. Luring worked out well for most things with all of them, but I just love watching a dog learn how to learn and grasp things on their own when free shaping. I feel like if I'd known more, there would be more precision with certain behaviours too.

So yeah, right now I'd say 85-90% of my initial training is done using luring. But I am trying more shaping with Dance and loving it.
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  #16  
Old 08-13-2012, 03:59 PM
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It depends on who I'm training, what I'm training, where, what distractions are present, etc. I definitely shape more with Kimma but that's because she "gets" it better than the other two (probably since she grew up with it). With Bubbles it's more about capturing and luring, Pen is about luring and shaping, Kimma is about shaping and capturing. So a bit of everything LOL.

If I ever end up with a puppy (I keep getting adult dogs LOL), then I will more than likely shape most (if not all) behaviors.
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  #17  
Old 08-13-2012, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpringerLover View Post
I free shape to the extent that I have specific set ups for specific competition behaviors. I don't shape things like heel position because it tends to be sloppy no matter how you try to "fix it." I teach the position using a pedestal with me moving into correct position first and work from there.

I do lure fold-back downs because so few dogs are reliable about offering it and it's something I want on cue early on, rather than the sloppy sit first down.

So, I free shape about 95%, and use tools to get the correct response. I lure about 5% probably?
You took the words out of my mouth, even down to heeling and down being what I lure. I also do a lot with/focus on reward placement, which is different than luring but comes into play a ton during agility (and can be applied to obedience). The dog isn't doing the behavior because the treat is in front of him, but he does move a certain way or in a certain direction because of where the reward is typically delivered. Like, when Keeva does the channel weaves, I mark as soon as she exits and toss the toy out in front of her. That had her blasting through the channel and driving right to the end in a few reps.

For Mackenzy, I cue her over the broad jump and then land her ball in front of her so that she jumps high and straight, etc.

But yeah, I mostly free shape, except for those few behaviors where luring proves optimal for me, like heeling and the fold-back down.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily View Post
You took the words out of my mouth, even down to heeling and down being what I lure. I also do a lot with/focus on reward placement, which is different than luring but comes into play a ton during agility (and can be applied to obedience). The dog isn't doing the behavior because the treat is in front of him, but he does move a certain way or in a certain direction because of where the reward is typically delivered. Like, when Keeva does the channel weaves, I mark as soon as she exits and toss the toy out in front of her. That had her blasting through the channel and driving right to the end in a few reps.

For Mackenzy, I cue her over the broad jump and then land her ball in front of her so that she jumps high and straight, etc.

But yeah, I mostly free shape, except for those few behaviors where luring proves optimal for me, like heeling and the fold-back down.
Agility Right From The Start has some great advice on placement of reinforcement. I learned a lot from it, and my friend Kristen...
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  #19  
Old 08-13-2012, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily View Post
You took the words out of my mouth, even down to heeling and down being what I lure. I also do a lot with/focus on reward placement, which is different than luring but comes into play a ton during agility (and can be applied to obedience). The dog isn't doing the behavior because the treat is in front of him, but he does move a certain way or in a certain direction because of where the reward is typically delivered. Like, when Keeva does the channel weaves, I mark as soon as she exits and toss the toy out in front of her. That had her blasting through the channel and driving right to the end in a few reps.
Pretty much same here too. There's some things that just make more sense to shape and some things that make more sense to lure. I shaped a lot with Savvy and he's a natural at it. It depends somewhat on the dog too. Some of my older dogs who weren't as exposed to shaping aren't as good at it.


For sure though, reward placement can make a huge difference. One example of that is Whim was having an issue with weaves - popping out of the last one. Our instructor suggested it was because I always throw the reward ahead. Which is great for many things with weaves but can eventually make some dogs want to hurry too much at the end to get their reward. So I started rewarding her right at the last pole and got results pretty quick. Now I switch it up, sometimes she gets a toy throw to maintain her speed and forward focus and sometimes she gets it or a treat at the last pole to remind her it's important to complete all of them.

I also see all the time when I'm teaching obedience type classes that dogs orient to wherever they most often get rewarded. Usually when people aren't thinking about reward placement, this tends to be in front of the owner. I don't know how many dogs I have had in CGC classes who would not sit at their owners side because they were always rewarded when in front. Or dogs who front after a recall slightly to one side or the other - depending on which hand the owner usually treats front. Dogs are so great at anticipation
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  #20  
Old 08-13-2012, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
me 3 and it does. I learned that lesson.
Me 4, even my free shaping is made up of limited options. Meaning I'll often block the wrong choices and encourage the correct. I also help my dogs a lot with luring.
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