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  #101  
Old 08-15-2012, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Izzy's Valkyrie View Post
I doubt that you and I will ever agree on the point.

If a theocracy can be defined as a government that is officially run based on the doctrines of a particular religion or religious group, I believe Romney's plan for reform would lead America to become a theocracy. I believe this because Romney and Ryan's large reform plans include: banning gay couples from sharing the same rights as heterosexual couple because the bible condemns homosexuality, banning or at least making contraceptives nearly impossible to come by because the bible does not condone contraceptive use, as well as removing women's reproductive rights because the bible makes man lord and master of his wife's body.
please show where either politician has actually SAID anything you put in bold. although it is pretty much accepted the old testament is harsh toward homsexuality. the new testament is not so much.
FTR while the LDS church opposes gay marriage I have never heard them oppose civil unions. the LDS church doctrine does oppose abortion as birth control but leaves all other BC to the conscience of the individual members. and where in the doctrine of the LDS church is the man "lord & master" of his wife. as a matter of fact LDS doctrine has in plain terms stated the man is to lead by example and may not use force or coersion against his wife. LDS doctrine has also stated that a wife has as EQUAL sexual right with their husband.


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Originally Posted by Izzy's Valkyrie View Post
Considering many of their decisive platform points are based on their religious faith, Christianity, their reforms would lead to the official conducting of government in accordance with a particular religious doctrine, i.e. the Christian bible. I don't think there has to be a particular sect or branch of religion adhered to to qualify as a theocracy (Why do you think it has to be Catholics or Mormons? Why can't it just be Christianity?)If Christianity is the leading reason for the making of new laws under their form of government, they are planning on running it as a theocracy.
because a theocracy, by definition, is run by religious leaders not laymen w/ religious convictions. Iran is technically a theocracy (Shiite muslim to be exact) because the religous leaders choose the ostensibly secular government leades AND they dictate to the "secular" government the policies & laws the government will enact & enforce. please show where either has said they would put the USA under the governance of either the president of the LDS church or the Pope. we do not & unless there is some serious civil war action, will not in our lifetime see a theocracy in the USA.
it can't be just christianity because the denominations can't agree 100% on what is & is not correct in christianity. heck the baptists in MO & IL murdered thousands of LDS (mormons) in the 1800s and yet both are christian.
but let's for the sake of argument use biblically correct doctrine for running the USA. what is wrong with love thy neighbor as thyself & forgive all men. your animosity is based entirely on the actions of men & NOT on the actual doctrine of the scriptures. further you're assuming that ONLY christianity or even abrahamic religions are the sole source of the moral choices behind their views. I personally opposed abortion as birth control long before i ever developed any specific religious views.

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Originally Posted by Izzy's Valkyrie View Post
I'm not being a psycholiberal nutter, I am clearly stating why I think that their reforms to the government, should they be elected, would lead to a theocracy. I understand that there must be a democratic process to get these reforms approved and put into action in our country. Although their ideal government may never come to pass, the Romney/Ryan platform is presented with an ideal US being run as a theocracy. Since I do not agree that this would be the ideal form of government, I do not have any plans to vote for them.
no, you're trumpeting rhetoric & hyperbole w/o any foundation in reality. seriously it's like listening to limbaugh.
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  #102  
Old 08-15-2012, 01:56 AM
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no, you're trumpeting rhetoric & hyperbole w/o any foundation in reality. seriously it's like listening to limbaugh.
I'm pretty sure neither one of you are citing references, so insulting someone for something you're also failing to do is like calling the kettle black. Remember: keep this civil if you would like this thread to last.



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Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
please show where either politician has actually SAID anything you put in bold.
http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Paul_Ryan.htm/

http://www.ontheissues.org/mitt_romney.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=lruG938Puag

Since most speeches can't be found on YouTube...you can simply research their vote history. They have both voted against gay rights, against abortion, against contraceptive, against allowing gays to adopt, and Paul Ryan even voted against a bill that stopped hate crimes against gays.
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  #103  
Old 08-15-2012, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
I'm pretty sure neither one of you are citing references, so insulting someone for something you're also failing to do is like calling the kettle black. Remember: keep this civil if you would like this thread to last.





http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Paul_Ryan.htm/

http://www.ontheissues.org/mitt_romney.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=lruG938Puag

Since most speeches can't be found on YouTube...you can simply research their vote history. They have both voted against gay rights, against abortion, against contraceptive, against allowing gays to adopt, and Paul Ryan even voted against a bill that stopped hate crimes against gays.
Actually, a lot of LDS folks were really cheesed off at Romney for not stepping in and coming down more harshly against abortion when he was gov of Massachusets. And if you look in the link you yourself provided, you'll see that while he personally is against abortion he has repeatedly supported the legal right to do so.

Being LDS myself, I can vouch for the fact that men and women are equal partners in our church. There's no lording over little wifeys. It's not part of the culture. Sometimes guys with abusive personalities end up in the church and they do emotionally/physically abuse their wives, but it's definitely not part of the culture, it's not the norm, and when they're exposed the community tends to react in a very unfavorable way toward the perpetrator.

If anybody is interested, this article explains very clearly what the LDS church views as abusive and unacceptable in a domestic relationship.
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/10/a-...abuse?lang=eng

Quote:
Spouse abuse involves inappropriate acts of one spouse over the other. It may involve coercive acts in which an abuser forces a person to do something that he or she normally would not do, with no particular concern for the victim. Abuse may also include the use of threats, name calling, yelling, and intimidation.

I believe that there are people, women particularly, who are abuse victims but wouldn’t describe themselves as such. They can’t go out of their homes, they have to be back at nine o’clock, they can’t go to lunch on Tuesday because they didn’t get permission from their husbands, and so on. It may not necessarily involve being beaten up, but it is still abuse and is outside the bounds the Lord has set for marriage.
and especially this, which I'm quoting because for some reason it's often misunderstood by people who aren't involved in the church.
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In some cases abusers misunderstand or misapply the concept of leadership in the home. I want to make it very clear that it’s not the concept of a presiding leader in the home that is wrong; it’s the misapplication of it. The 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants speaks of that specifically: “The rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, … but when we … exercise control or dominion or compulsion … in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves” (D&C 121:36–37).
The scripture quoted in the above quote was super long, so if you want to read the whole passage you'll have to get the link out of the article.

ETA: and I'm really bummed about missing a really cool workshop approved by the LDS church that was given last weekend. It was about creating safe spaces for homosexuals within the LDS church and communities. It looked incredibly fascinating, and was of special interest to me because my oldest (and most favorite) brother is homosexual.
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  #104  
Old 08-15-2012, 03:43 AM
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Gotta admit, MelissaCato's input on this election would be interesting to have
Darn tootin there lady. There would be some good stuff indeed.
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  #105  
Old 08-15-2012, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzy's Valkyrie View Post
I doubt that you and I will ever agree on the point.

If a theocracy can be defined as a government that is officially run based on the doctrines of a particular religion or religious group, I believe Romney's plan for reform would lead America to become a theocracy. I believe this because Romney and Ryan's large reform plans include: banning gay couples from sharing the same rights as heterosexual couple because the bible condemns homosexuality, banning or at least making contraceptives nearly impossible to come by because the bible does not condone contraceptive use, as well as removing women's reproductive rights because the bible makes man lord and master of his wife's body.

Considering many of their decisive platform points are based on their religious faith, Christianity, their reforms would lead to the official conducting of government in accordance with a particular religious doctrine, i.e. the Christian bible. I don't think there has to be a particular sect or branch of religion adhered to to qualify as a theocracy (Why do you think it has to be Catholics or Mormons? Why can't it just be Christianity?)If Christianity is the leading reason for the making of new laws under their form of government, they are planning on running it as a theocracy.

I'm not being a psycholiberal nutter, I am clearly stating why I think that their reforms to the government, should they be elected, would lead to a theocracy. I understand that there must be a democratic process to get these reforms approved and put into action in our country. Although their ideal government may never come to pass, the Romney/Ryan platform is presented with an ideal US being run as a theocracy. Since I do not agree that this would be the ideal form of government, I do not have any plans to vote for them.
At least two of your three bolded points are untrue. The Bible actually has very little to say on the issue of contrseptives. Catholics are the main religious group among Christians that prohibit the use of contraceptives. The rest of us, for the most part, are fine with it. If I remember correctly, the use of contraceptives to prevent pregnancy was actually brought up by up pastor in our pre-wedding counseling (Lutheran).

Also, in the majority of Christianity the husband and wife are equal sexual partners. The New Testament does outline a husband and wife's responsibilities to each other, but does not declare the husband the master of his wife's body.
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  #106  
Old 08-15-2012, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Romy View Post
Actually, a lot of LDS folks were really cheesed off at Romney for not stepping in and coming down more harshly against abortion when he was gov of Massachusets. And if you look in the link you yourself provided, you'll see that while he personally is against abortion he has repeatedly supported the legal right to do so.

Being LDS myself, I can vouch for the fact that men and women are equal partners in our church. There's no lording over little wifeys. It's not part of the culture. Sometimes guys with abusive personalities end up in the church and they do emotionally/physically abuse their wives, but it's definitely not part of the culture, it's not the norm, and when they're exposed the community tends to react in a very unfavorable way toward the perpetrator.

If anybody is interested, this article explains very clearly what the LDS church views as abusive and unacceptable in a domestic relationship.
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/10/a-...abuse?lang=eng



and especially this, which I'm quoting because for some reason it's often misunderstood by people who aren't involved in the church.


The scripture quoted in the above quote was super long, so if you want to read the whole passage you'll have to get the link out of the article.

ETA: and I'm really bummed about missing a really cool workshop approved by the LDS church that was given last weekend. It was about creating safe spaces for homosexuals within the LDS church and communities. It looked incredibly fascinating, and was of special interest to me because my oldest (and most favorite) brother is homosexual.
Sorry but being an ex-mormon myself I have to fully disagree with most of what you have said. In the mormon faith abortion is a kin to murder. And the use of birth control in any form is extremely frown upon and when you go in for your Temple recommend interview and if you report you use it then you can and in many cases will be denied a Temple Recommend on just that reason alone. They believe that God decides how large your family will be and that you have to let God decide that and to stop it is a sin.

As for men and women being equal that is a total laugh. I have been in this church since I was 3, all across Canada and parts of the US including Salt Lake. There is a defiante higherarchy between the sex's. Prime example just look at Temple marriage. If a wife divorces her husband she has to get permission from her ex AND the higher athorities to have that Temple marriage annuled to get remarried in the Temple. Otherwise she will "eternally" be married to the one she divorced and in the churches eyes only married till death do you part to her new spouse. That gives a man HUGE power and authority even after the marriage has legally been declared over. As for domestic abuse in the Mormon faith it is actually a HUGE problem. Not a small one. And if a woman was to report it to the Bishop, her home teachers or so on she is told it is her fault. How do I know this? Not only did I go through it but I know many others that have as well. She is then counceled to be a better wife, more attentive and so on. If she is a better wife, prays more and such then her husband would not be treating her that way. This is not just words from multiple Bishops but also from multiple Hoe Teachers AND the counslors that they send you too as well. That is how it is handled. And then it is rug swept. And no the abuser is not condemed or ignored. Many times it is the wife that is shunned since obviously she is not being a good enough wife.

It really gets me when someone shows the "Public churchs" side of things and not the realistic truth that is being dictated and done. Just because in public they say one thing does not mean it is truth. In public the church teaches it's members and states that it's founding Prophet Jospeh Smith only had one wife. When in fact he had multiple wives, many married to other men and some were 14yrs old. So publc truth and actual working truth are two totally different things in this religion.

As for the churchs standing on Gays, it is simple. Look up the documentary called Prop 8: The Mormon Proposition. You just have to see what they tried to pull in California to stop Gay marriage. And how they treat gays in their religion. They did affect, seriously, the rights of many people.

Anyway I will disappear back into never never land. Just had to correct the misinformation about a faith that I was so emeshed in for so long till my eyes and brain were thrown wide open. Back to the political debate.
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  #107  
Old 08-15-2012, 08:57 AM
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Ugh...that makes me sick to my stomach.
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  #108  
Old 08-15-2012, 09:03 AM
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Ugh...that makes me sick to my stomach.
Honestly, I'd take everything she says with a (large) grain of salt.
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  #109  
Old 08-15-2012, 09:16 AM
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Honestly, I'd take everything she says with a (large) grain of salt.
Excuse me but I am not a proffesional victim as you call it. Please keep your name calling to yourself. All you have to do is google Prop 8: The Mormon Proposition and that proves that part of what I state easily. Then do a goggle of how many wives the prophet had. Here I will do it for you:

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Two of which were 14yrs old. Many of which were married to other men at the time he wanted them.

Temple marriage divorce:
http://lds.about.com/od/temples/a/mormon_divorce.htm

The paper work and such through the Bishop they are speaking of is the permission the wives have to get from the ex's to get the Temple Divorce. A woman can only be Temple married to one man. But a man can be to multiple women even if they are legally divorced. Agian how do I know? My mother has been married 5 times. Twice in the Temple. She had to get her ex's permission to have their sealing canceled before she could be married to her next spouse. That is my personal example I know many who had to do the same thing.

Just because you do not like me does not make what I post false and does not make me a perfessional victim. So please stop calling me that.

Editted to add: Thanks for taking out the Proffesional Victim part in your reply. I appreciate that.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by NicoleLJ View Post
Excuse me but I am not a proffesional victim as you call it. Please keep your name calling to yourself. All you have to do is google Prop 8: The Mormon Proposition and that proves that part of what I state easily. Then do a goggle of how many wives the prophet had. Here I will do it for you:

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Two of which were 14yrs old. Many of which were married to other men at the time he wanted them.

Temple marriage divorce:
http://lds.about.com/od/temples/a/mormon_divorce.htm

The paper work and such through the Bishop they are speaking of is the permission the wives have to get from the ex's to get the Temple Divorce. A woman can only be Temple married to one man. But a man can be to multiple women even if they are legally divorced. Agian how do I know? My mother has been married 5 times. Twice in the Temple. She had to get her ex's permission to have their sealing canceled before she could be married to her next spouse. That is my personal example I know many who had to do the same thing.

Just because you do not like me does not make what I post false and does not make me a perfessional victim. So please stop calling me that.

Editted to add: Thanks for taking out the Proffesional Victim part in your reply. I appreciate that.
I very much think you are a professional victim- I won't deny that. It doesn't matter if I like you or not. Everything you do and say keeps you down as a victim. Instead of always posting about how 'mistreated' you were, it may be more beneficial to rise above it all and do something about your life. You don't HAVE to be a victim. No one owes you anything.

Especially by reading how Romy talks about being LDS, I have a hard time believing that the entire religion is the way you paint it.
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