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Old 08-08-2012, 05:40 PM
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Default Hunting dog question

Well, more coon hunting question than anything. Okay, so I was looking at coon hound videos on youtube and spotted this video. Beware because it is pretty graphic. To those who don't want to watch it, it is bascially two dogs fighting a raccoon with both dogs playing tug a war with it. It is still alive and screaming and you can see it slowly being rip open. And the people are watching and encouraging it like a good show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5djG...eature=related

Now, I thought coon hunting was a dog tracking and treeing the raccoon while the hunter shoots it down. I assume that accidents happen and sometimes the dogs reach the raccoon and a fight occurs and the raccoon gets killed that way. Or am I wrong? Do the hunters want the dogs to reach and fight the raccoon? Is it rare for the dogs to fight a raccoon, or is it more common for them to tree it.?

Honestly, can't lie that I'm having mixed feelings towards it right now. I seriously hope this video isn't a common event.
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:47 PM
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If the dogs can catch it on the ground (IE they strike a track & outrun the raccoon to the tree - common in an open field or something) it happens. Sometimes you can shoot them (a couple times!) and they come down fighting. I wouldn't say it's the norm, but a lot of people think fighting a coon can increase the dog's desire & will let them fight a few from time to time. That said, some people are just jerks. Also, I guess it goes without saying that if they're fur takers who need to sell the hides, this is a BIG NO-NO! those dogs would get a boot in the rear.
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlottMom View Post
If the dogs can catch it on the ground (IE they strike a track & outrun the raccoon to the tree - common in an open field or something) it happens. Sometimes you can shoot them (a couple times!) and they come down fighting. I wouldn't say it's the norm, but a lot of people think fighting a coon can increase the dog's desire & will let them fight a few from time to time. That said, some people are just jerks. Also, I guess it goes without saying that if they're fur takers who need to sell the hides, this is a BIG NO-NO! those dogs would get a boot in the rear.
Very happy to hear you say that. So these people would have been viewed as jerks even to most of the coon hunting community? Like I said, I get it if the dogs catch the raccon before it makes it up a tree. Its hard to stop a pack of dogs from their prey. But these dogs had on leashes. And they pause every now and again. It would not have been impossible to have taken the dogs away from the raccoon and put it out of its misery. Its the joy from the people that I find disturbing. I know raccoons are pests to many people, but to enjoy seeing an animal being tortured to death?

ETA I've always thought that most hunters have extreme respect for the animals and most would want to kill an animal as quickly as possible and not prolong their suffering.
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:25 PM
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Well, don't let me mislead you - *I* can't stomach much of the entertainment kills, and most people I know would dispatch the coon a bit quicker, but they'd still be cheering their dog on... in this case the excitement is mostly due to it being the 7 month old's first time putting on her big girl panties and fighting a coon - they were probably just happy she didn't turn tail & try to run...

I know some people who *never* shoot a coon because a) we don't see enough of them and b) you can't carry a firearm in competition, so it's better not to get the dog used to fighting a coon each time they're out. I agree with both of those, lol


ETA: a lot of people view them as varmints, not that I think that makes it acceptable...
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Now, I thought coon hunting was a dog tracking and treeing the raccoon while the hunter shoots it down.
Plott covered this pretty well, but some hunters prefer to let the dog do the work for whatever reason (although I've known smaller hounds to be killed by coons). As for the people in this video, they've likely got a young dog just learning the ropes and in their minds letting her play with the coon is the best way to keep her engaged and give her a positive association with hunting. IMO, letting the dog just tree the coon isn't going to damage the drive of a good dog at all, but some people disagree and feel that the dog should get the whole experience.

Quote:
Is it rare for the dogs to fight a raccoon, or is it more common for them to tree it?
This depends on the particular dog or the situation. I have known dogs that have never gotten a coon on the ground (barring the animal being shot and falling), simply because their route to game or approach was circuitous or loud. Other dogs seem to be tangling constantly.

Quote:
So these people would have been viewed as jerks even to most of the coon hunting community?
I wouldn't say that. Generally hunters acclimate quickly to some amount of suffering from the animals they kill, and some have a higher tolerance than others. To many, that coon is a pest (like others might consider a mouse or a rat or a pigeon to be), and if its suffering is encouraging a young dog then so be it. That said, there are many out there (including myself) who would disagree with how this particular situation was handled.

Quote:
Its the joy from the people that I find disturbing.
I wouldn't say that the joy is due to the death of the coon (or its pain) necessarily, but rather excitement and adrenaline from the hunt, along with being pleased for the dog.

Quote:
I've always thought that most hunters have extreme respect for the animals and most would want to kill an animal as quickly as possible and not prolong their suffering.
The good ones do. But like any pastime, people get into hunting for all sorts of reasons and sometimes those reasons can make people do ugly things. It's really a shame to see videos like this which (IMO) reflect poorly on a group of people that has extreme variety as far as personal integrity goes.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:24 PM
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Ok, I hate racoons - so this doesn't bother me that much - if that makes me sound sick or like a sociopath so be it.

I've been on fox hunts before and I agree with houlahoops - the joy/excitement is less focused or derived from the hunteds death or pain but more so from the thrill of the whole thing.

I don't hunt nor is my dog a hunting type - but if I did I would shoot it as soon as soon as I had a chance to/my hunter dog secured it.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:42 PM
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I don't think they were enjoying the raccoon's suffering so much as the dog's victory if that makes sense. Seems like they wanted the dog to make the kill, when that wasn't happening they were talking about killing it themselves (I didn't watch the whole thing).

I get wanting your dog to finish the deal. I get that it can take a while before an animal learns to make a clean-ish kill. But it didn't seem like either dog was particularly into it or learning anything (even what I assume is their more seasoned dog) and to me that went on way too long.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:42 PM
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Hmm..I don't think I agree with this exact situation, 'for the fun of it'? I think if the animal was in your yard and the dog caught it, or you had a pest animal you needed to root out, and perhaps didn't have means of quickly offing it-I could see that. If you are going out hunting, you shouldn't only rely on your dogs to take care of the target. I don't see the point of hunting just to kill an animal that isn't useful to humans and is living it's life in the woods or something.

I also worry about the damage that could result to the dogs...and where this seems to be a pointless hunt, the risk doesn't seem worth it to me.
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Old 08-09-2012, 01:15 AM
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My hounds aren't traditional coon hounds by any means, but they always kill the coons with their teeth. They've gotten really fast and slick at it though, and it didn't take long for them to learn. They're big enough that most coons they grab by the neck and shake real hard, and the coon is dead.

The only big drawn out fight Strider has had was with that gigantor boar coon. I cheered him on because I wanted him to finish it off, not because I enjoy animal suffering. They're horrible dangerous pests in our neck of the woods (Oly raccoons were even on CNN once for how aggressive they are). After finding my favorite birds skinned alive with their arms ripped out of the sockets, I'm really not that sympathetic to them.

A week before Strider got in the fight with that boar coon, our neighbor had a barbecue. Afterward she cleaned up, and a gigantic raccoon ripped out her kitchen screen, came inside and helped himself to their food. It took half an hour of her screaming and hitting at it with a shovel, and it just hissed at her. So she got our neighbor with the rottie mix "puppy" to bring his dog over and chase it out. Even then it tried to attack that dog. I have a strong suspicion it was a same raccoon, because it even tried to bully Strider at first.
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Old 08-09-2012, 01:48 AM
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a couple of things to add
1. scent hounds did not originate as game getters but for sport and good kill dogs were NOT the primary choice in breeding decisions, consequently even now alot of hounds just aren't good (fast) at killing
2. even w/ dogs from killing breeds (terriers, sighthounds and to a lesser extent curs & bulldogs) being good at killing is an aquired skill, it takes a couple to several hard fights depending on the dog (some never learn to be good at it). then if you switch game the learning starts over
3. IME multiple dogs make a mess of killing where one dog will usually make a cleaner job of it
4. wild canines aren't any more efficient than dogs so the animals could still have a bad end w/o people being remotely involved
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