Caucasian Ovcharka

[Emily]

Originally Posted by Barbara!

I'm wondering when it was that I ever said positive reinforcement didn't work?

To me, positive reinforcement is a foundation. The dog either does well with the foundation, or you build on top of the reinforcement to help them learn. Some dogs do need corrections, yes, they do. I have witnessed it myself and no one can tell me otherwise because it's just bologna that every dog ever only needs P+ without anything else. It is just not true.

Ok, but there are so many misunderstandings in this paragraph alone that I can see why you don't understand the practical application of positive training. You might not like hearing that but it's true. But meh, I know when I was making the same arguments years ago I "knew" I was right too, lol, and nothing was going to convince me otherwise. Except my own experience, which fortunately, won out over my ass-hattery.

I dunno, I'm not somebody who cries over the use of aversives, I just hate seeing people completely misunderstand and simultaneously dismiss positive training. It gets old.

Btw, years ago, my dog "needed" corrections, and I KNEW she did, god **** it. Funny, same dog, different handler attitude, and the dog no longer "needs" corrections. LOL.

[Barbara!]

Please tell me when I dismissed positive training?

This will be the second time I'm asking this.

[Emily]

Originally Posted by Barbara!

I have witnessed it myself and no one can tell me otherwise because it's just bologna that every dog ever only needs P+ without anything else. It is just not true.

Both a misunderstanding (no one uses "only P+ without anything else") and and a dismissal (bologna, eh?). lol

[AdrianneIsabel]

Arnold needed corrections if I was ever going to safety walk him outside in a timely manner(yup, time matters to me on some issues). He's an extremely happy dog.

I'm all for shaping and positivity and I choose to use operant conditioning, I don't believe that makes me any less enlightened than the next individual.

"To each their own" and "the dogs will show their training" but thats never good enough anymore it seems.

[Emily]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

Arnold needed corrections if I was ever going to safety walk him outside in a timely manner(yup, time matters to me on some issues).

Time matters to me as well and it certainly one of the factors that can make me reach for aversive measures; however, that's a situation/scenario/handler issue, not a dog that's immune to positive reinforcement.

[Barbara!]

Originally Posted by Emily

Both a misunderstanding (no one uses "only P+ without anything else") and and a dismissal (bologna, eh?). lol

No, YOU are the one misunderstanding. I never said EITHER of those things.

I said it is bologna to think that ONLY positive reinforcement works with every dog, every time. It just doesn't work like that. Sometimes you have dogs come along that need negative reinforcement or corrections. You also have dogs that don't and they train just fine on P+ only.

I also never said that only using positive reinforcement doesn't work. I said it is a foundation. Some dogs do well with the foundation only, others need to build upon that foundation.

[Danefied]

Originally Posted by Pops2

if this were true there'd be no such thing as dyslexia nor special education. brains are living tissue and have general functions in common but ultimately each one is individualized and continues to individualize throught the life of the being.

No, not necessarily. A dyslexic still learns by forming neuron connections. What stimuli will create those neuron connections might differ, but the fact that there need to be neuron connections for learning to happen doesn’t change.

Sorry to use the gravity example again, but its like the feather and the rock. The feather is affected by wind currents, is less dense, has more possibilities for air flow etc. So as the feather falls from the sky it will look very different than the rock falling from the sky. However gravity applies to both.
The individuality comes in in HOW the objects fall, but the fact that the objects do fall towards the earth does not change.

All properly functioning organisms have to be motivated to do a behavior. The motivation may come in the way of avoiding an aversive or gaining a reward, or a combination of both, but the motivation part MUST be there or no behavior will happen. You may not be aware of what is motivating the behavior, you may misinterpret what is motivating the behavior, but you can be sure the behavior is not happening without motivation.

Originally Posted by Barbara!

To me, positive reinforcement is a foundation. The dog either does well with the foundation, or you build on top of the reinforcement to help them learn. Some dogs do need corrections, yes, they do. I have witnessed it myself and no one can tell me otherwise because it's just bologna that every dog ever only needs P+ without anything else. It is just not true.

Okay... Positive reinforcement is not a foundation. It is one of four quadrants of Learning Theory. Arguably each quadrant cannot exist without another. You don’t get to make up what R+ “means” to you. It already has a scientific definition.
This is a great site that kind of breaks down the quadrants for the lay person:
http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/

Originally Posted by Emily

I dunno, I'm not somebody who cries over the use of aversives, I just hate seeing people completely misunderstand and simultaneously dismiss positive training. It gets old.

Yeah, this. Do what you want with your dog, I won’t argue that. But I will argue incorrect information.

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, its the illusion of knowledge.” ~Stephen Hawking

(And the fact that most people are far more likely to know who the Kardashians are than who Stephen Hawking is, makes me cry.)

[Romy]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

Arnold needed corrections if I was ever going to safety walk him outside in a timely manner(yup, time matters to me on some issues). He's an extremely happy dog.

I'm all for shaping and positivity and I choose to use operant conditioning, I don't believe that makes me any less enlightened than the next individual.

"To each their own" and "the dogs will show their training" but thats never good enough anymore it seems.

Adrianne, you get to be the example.

^^ I have no problem with the above. She understands what both methods entail, the mechanics of how they alter behavior, and chose the method that would work for her dog within the required time constraints. Sometimes time is an important factor in behavior modification (like if your landlord says to shut your dangity dang dog up by tomorrow or get rid of it). It was an informed decision.

To me that's very different than someone who applies one method or the other, correctly or incorrectly, without understanding the reasons behind what they're doing and why it is or isn't working. And then dissing other methods based on a misunderstandings or lack of knowledge about them.

[Emily]

Originally Posted by Romy

^^ I have no problem with the above. She understands what both methods entail, the mechanics of how they alter behavior, and chose the method that would work for her dog within the required time constraints. Sometimes time is an important factor in behavior modification (like if your landlord says to shut your dangity dang dog up by tomorrow or get rid of it). It was an informed decision.

This. I've used aversives and recommended them in certain situations for certain handlers because of practical constraints or owner-compliance issues.

[Aleron]

This sort of discussion always makes me think of this quote that Sue Ailsby included in her seminar handout years ago. I find this so true with dogs and their owners.

"One surprising but useful by-product of being a doting parent is that a child doted upon gets upset when the parent is unhappy with him. The more cheerful and satisfied the normal state of the parent, the easier it is to register displeasure. Thus, a surly parent may have to resort to terrible measures to convince the child that there is any loss of satisfaction, since none was apparent anyway; but a happy parent may be able to instill awe and remorse with only a severe look" - Judith Martin in Miss Manners Guide to Rearing Perfect Children