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  #11  
Old 07-27-2012, 09:58 PM
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ihartgonzo ihartgonzo is offline
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The behaviorist posted in a private group that I'm in on FB... she did post on the Wicca FB, but was completely ignored & dismissed. Here's a quote from her.

"I am familair with this case, as I spoke with the owner, when he was asking for help to save his dog. He was pleading for help to the dog....two days before he was due to bring her in to be PTS.

I believe that the dog should get an evaluation before any decision is made...but the laws in the borough where this occured (Park Extension) states that a civil servant can declare a dog dangerous. That is the problem, this law needs to be revised. Each borough in the city of Montreal had different laws regarding this.

The owner himself told me that Wicca did bite the woman, but that he wasn't sure about the medic. He told me that Wicca did try to bite him, but he wasn't sure if she actually did. He also told me that Wicca was a nervous dog in new situations, and that he kept her away from new people, by walking the dog at odd hours, and crossing the street, if need be.

When he called me, I told him that I could help with training, but not in two days, and that I could not stop a PTS order. I then referred him to a local pit bull rescue group, as they may know more about the laws than I did, as I am not a lawyer.

My understanding is that the rescue group could not help, as they are also not lawyers, and nor do they take on dogs who are a liability. They couldn't give him any legal advise.

Two days later, I noticed that another local rescue group had taken on his case to help him. This particular group has taken dogs into hiding before, and are versed in taking cities to court.

What really bothered me, was how it was represented by this group. They made it sound like poor lil Wicca was scared by the big bad woman, and was only acting in self defense because she was so frightened, and she protected her owner, like any good dog would.

That was a load of crap. They should have presented, from the beginning, that Wicca did bite at least one person, harmed two people (including the woman she bit), but wasn't getting an evaluation, to decide her fate, rather that a civil servant was making that decision.

I hate how she's being compared to Lennox. To gain public support, and to ensure that emotions will run high, which will result in more signatures.

Lennox was seized in a BSL area, soley based on his looks. He didn't harm ONE THING. Wicca was not in a BSL area, and nor was she seized, She harmed two people, and it's known that she bit at least one.

The blaming of the victim is sickening. Claiming it is a scratch is sickening. Emotions are SO high, and people are losing it.

What if the city decided to return her to her owner? And now the whole city believes Wicca to be an angel who was just scared, but is a really sweet dog. And then the owner is out walking her one day, and a child recognizes her, cos her pic is everywhere, and wants to meet her. Like many kids he doesn't ask, but runs up, squealing with excitement to say hi. And then Wicca get scared again."

"Oh, forgot to tell you, the owner of the pound, Berger Blanc, where the dog is being kept, is now saying that he will refuse to put Wicca to sleep, because she is a good dog.

This is a for profit pound that has been investigated for animal cruelty, and has had numerous demonstrations against. (BY a lot of the very people who are demonstrating for Wicca.)

He is only doing this for good PR, and to garner public support, so people forget about them being a horrid, abusive pound. How quickly people forget."
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  #12  
Old 07-27-2012, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Miakoda View Post
If the dog randomly bit a person doing nothing but walking by her in the opposite direction, the dog deserved to be euthanized.

This kind of crap irritates the stew outta me. And what will end up happening is actually undoing all the positive outcomes from the Lennox situation.

There's not room in this world for "pit bull" who "accidentally scares the hell out of people by chasing them and jumping on them and lightly biting them". And there is even less room in this world for their idiot owners.
I go with this reaction. I've been reading the story kinda sad and puzzled. But the point is nobody wants a strange dog jumping on them. And as a responsible pitty owner you're way vigilant anyway. But if the owner knew he had a history of people aggression...a super secure harness? a muzzle? You have to have full control of your dog. Our babies face enough prejudice as it is without stories like this.
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  #13  
Old 07-27-2012, 10:39 PM
JessLough JessLough is offline
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Originally Posted by ihartgonzo View Post
The owner specifically told this behaviorist that Wicca had shown aggression towards people. He intentionally walked her late at night to avoid encountering people. He said Wicca was startled by the woman because of her "scared energy". Wtf? If the woman was screaming and charging at them, that's one thing, but Wicca had to lunge out and jump on the woman to bite her, she ripped her shirt open and bit her stomach, the woman was not in any way approaching or touching her. It really sounds like some Cesar Millan BS to me. And he has said he's used Cesar's methods on the poor dog, so she was probably a suppressed, ticking timebomb to begin with.

The issue here is that a civil servant can declare a dog dangerous to the public. It's not BSL. It would be better if they changed the laws to ensure that dogs get evaluated by a behaviorist before being put down. But, with shelters having to euthanize MILLIONS of dogs (most of them friendly, bomb-proof Pit Bulls) due to a lack of space and funds... I understand that it's not realistic to give every biting dog a huge amount of evaluation and time. Life isn't fair. I wish all dogs were given evaluations by behaviorists with PhDs before being euthanized. But I also wish all dogs were given a chance at LIFE in general, a chance at being loved and cared for by the people who bring them into this world. And that is not happening. Gonzo was nearly PTS for nipping (like no broken skin, a small bruise) my nieghbor after my neighbor chased and beat him with a shovel. I'm sure he would have been, if we hadn't begged our neighbor for forgiveness & promised to move, as well as getting a good lawyer. If he had also gone after a civil servant? I'm sure that would be the last straw. And he definitely is not a Pit Bull.

I feel like Wicca's owner lied, covered up, sensationalized and screamed as much as he could because he wanted to get his dog back... he turned to Facebook, exploited Lennox's story, and rallied good-hearted people who really care about BSL. I agree with you Teal, it is NOT fair to Lennox, nor to all of the countless innocent dogs who have died due to nothing but BSL. Jess, there is no BSL where Wicca lived, making it even more ridiculous to blame that for her death. I feel like publicizing incidents of dogs being at large and aggressive and blaming breed discrimination for their death is not doing the breed any good. I also feel like if these thousands of outraged people instead put their time & energy into adopting or fostering a Pit Bull who is on death row for no other reason than their breed, it'd do so much more good.

Instead, people are ignoring facts, making assumptions, and flooding facebook with bullshit like this:
yah that's what I thought, I know some places were saying she died due to BSL, and I'm like yah.. there's like 4 boroughs outside of Montreal (that some call Montreal) that have BSL, Montreal itself doesn't. MANY of the pitbulls from Ontario go to Montreal...
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  #14  
Old 07-28-2012, 12:06 AM
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Sweet72947 Sweet72947 is offline
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Originally Posted by Miakoda View Post
If the dog randomly bit a person doing nothing but walking by her in the opposite direction, the dog deserved to be euthanized.
No a dog doesn't deserve to be euthanized. A dog is an animal, they don't know right from wrong. They aren't aggressive just to p*ss you off. If a dog is so uncomfortable in daily life that he can't function as normal companion animal, and especially if this discomfort causes him to become a danger to society, then it is a kindness to set them free of a tortured existence. But no dog deserves to be euthanized.

I agree with the OP though that people shouldn't be trying to ride Lennox's coattails for a situation that is completely different. It just undermines the message that Lennox's situation sends.
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  #15  
Old 07-28-2012, 12:35 AM
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From what I'm reading on the FB page, it seems like they called it discrimination because she caused [little or no?] Damage, yet was immediately set for euthanasia. The usual proceedings seem to be muzzling, dangerous dog precautions, fines and fees, etc. But in her case they went directly to seizing and euthanasia.

Being that it's just a FB page, I don't know how true that is.
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  #16  
Old 07-28-2012, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miakoda View Post
If the dog randomly bit a person doing nothing but walking by her in the opposite direction, the dog deserved to be euthanized.

This kind of crap irritates the stew outta me. And what will end up happening is actually undoing all the positive outcomes from the Lennox situation.

There's not room in this world for "pit bull" who "accidentally scares the hell out of people by chasing them and jumping on them and lightly biting them". And there is even less room in this world for their idiot owners.


Amen.

There are NO excuses for this dog. NONE. The owner SAID she was spooked... spooked dogs don't jump on what has spooked them, unless they are reacting in aggression caused by fear. So whether the dog did only scratch her, or was trying for a bite... doesn't matte. The reaction was inappropriate, and the dog needed to be put down.
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  #17  
Old 07-28-2012, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Sweet72947 View Post
I agree with the OP though that people shouldn't be trying to ride Lennox's coattails for a situation that is completely different. It just undermines the message that Lennox's situation sends.
Yes, well said. This is what bothers me about it, but I was having a hard time articulating it.

The behaviorist also has a good point that the process is badly in need of change: The person and qualifications of the person making the decision to label the dog dangerous should change. That IMO is what should be getting the publicity, but it won't because it's easier, sexier, and more emotional to rally around the fear of BSL and ride Lennox's coattails.
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  #18  
Old 07-28-2012, 10:25 AM
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Miakoda Miakoda is offline
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Originally Posted by Sweet72947 View Post
No a dog doesn't deserve to be euthanized. A dog is an animal, they don't know right from wrong. They aren't aggressive just to p*ss you off. If a dog is so uncomfortable in daily life that he can't function as normal companion animal, and especially if this discomfort causes him to become a danger to society, then it is a kindness to set them free of a tortured existence. But no dog deserves to be euthanized.

I agree with the OP though that people shouldn't be trying to ride Lennox's coattails for a situation that is completely different. It just undermines the message that Lennox's situation sends.
There is NO ROOM in this world for a human aggressive "pit bull". There's no room in this world for a fear aggressive "pit bull" that bites first to defend its life from some unperceivable threat.

I love APBTs most, but I love all "pit bulls". But we don't live in a society where these dogs get equal treatment. An aggressive attacking "pit bull" is seen in a much worse light than an aggressive attacking Basset Hound.

As it is, we don't have enough responsible owners able to care for the sheer number of good "pit bulls" needing homes, much less able to properly care for the unstable ones and/or ones with severe behavioral issues. And shoving a dog in a concrete kennel, where it will live out the remaining years of its life, and shoving food and water in once a day is even worse than death.

This owner obviously was not and is not capable of handling any dog, much less a dog with issues.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree, but not all dogs deserve to live. Not this one, and not the Boxers that killed my friend's little boy. Period.
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  #19  
Old 07-28-2012, 10:32 AM
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sillysally sillysally is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet72947 View Post
No a dog doesn't deserve to be euthanized. A dog is an animal, they don't know right from wrong. They aren't aggressive just to p*ss you off. If a dog is so uncomfortable in daily life that he can't function as normal companion animal, and especially if this discomfort causes him to become a danger to society, then it is a kindness to set them free of a tortured existence. But no dog deserves to be euthanized.

I agree with the OP though that people shouldn't be trying to ride Lennox's coattails for a situation that is completely different. It just undermines the message that Lennox's situation sends.
Thank you! You said exactly what I was thinking!
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  #20  
Old 07-28-2012, 10:41 AM
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sillysally sillysally is offline
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Originally Posted by Miakoda View Post
There is NO ROOM in this world for a human aggressive "pit bull". There's no room in this world for a fear aggressive "pit bull" that bites first to defend its life from some unperceivable threat.

I love APBTs most, but I love all "pit bulls". But we don't live in a society where these dogs get equal treatment. An aggressive attacking "pit bull" is seen in a much worse light than an aggressive attacking Basset Hound.

As it is, we don't have enough responsible owners able to care for the sheer number of good "pit bulls" needing homes, much less able to properly care for the unstable ones and/or ones with severe behavioral issues. And shoving a dog in a concrete kennel, where it will live out the remaining years of its life, and shoving food and water in once a day is even worse than death.

This owner obviously was not and is not capable of handling any dog, much less a dog with issues.

You and I will just have to agree to disagree, but not all dogs deserve to live. Not this one, and not the Boxers that killed my friend's little boy. Period.
I think the objection is to the use of the word "deserve,"-at least that's my objection. No dog, even one that has killed "deserves" death. The use of the word implies the dog is being put to death as some sort of capital punishment or administration of justice, when the fact is that dogs don't live by those rules and codes, only people do. Dogs can't form criminal intent, they are animals acting on behavioral impulses. Yes, it may be necessary to euth a dog for aggression, but it should not be done out of administration of justice (as the term "deserves to die" implies), but for the safety of the public and the breed itself.
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Pickles & Kiwi--3 yr old white winged parakeets
Yoda--1 yr old Quaker parrot
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