Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dogs - General Dog Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 07-17-2012, 06:51 PM
Jynx Jynx is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,071
Default

sassafrass, I guess you may be not in an area where tick diseases are prevailant?

Here, there are many dogs that show no clinical signs and go straight into kidney/liver failure and die from tick disease.

My aussies who test positive constantly, no I don't see any clinical signs, one is a weak positive the other in the middle range.

My shepherd now, was 'sick as a dog', (no pun intended) a couple months ago, liver values elevated, I did every test under the sun on her, and it all came back to her chronic anaplasmosis.

No, treating will not get 'rid' of the disease, once they have it, it's always there, whether dogs have clinical signs or not.

One can choose what they wish as for treatment or taking the tick diseases seriously.

I only know what i see/hear from my vet's and that is, to many dogs around here die from untreated tick disease that doesn't necessarily have to be clinical.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-17-2012, 06:53 PM
smkie's Avatar
smkie smkie is offline
pointer/labrador/terrier
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 54,671
Default

I cannot stress enough how much lyme disease has stolen from the quality of my life. I see them as evil vile injections of misery. I do not think you can be too paranoid about them at all. I will not get near the woods even with tick protection until after a hard frost.
__________________

Go Petie Go Go Who Go!

love comes in many directions with mary


Side by side on the sofa sat three annoyed dogs and one smug cat
and then in came a little white kitten,
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-17-2012, 07:00 PM
sassafras's Avatar
sassafras sassafras is offline
such sights to show you
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,589
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx View Post
sassafrass, I guess you may be not in an area where tick diseases are prevailant?
Actually, I do.

Quote:
Here, there are many dogs that show no clinical signs and go straight into kidney/liver failure and die from tick disease.
It is theorized that there is a complication of Lyme called "Lyme nephritis" - but this has never actually been proven. Empirically it seems to be true of many dogs, but it happens in a very, very small percentage of dogs who are exposed to Lyme. I've honestly never heard of liver disease being associated with Lyme or other tick borne diseases, nor have I been able to find any credible information about it. I'd be looking for another cause such as Leptospirosis, myself.

Quote:
My shepherd now, was 'sick as a dog', (no pun intended) a couple months ago, liver values elevated, I did every test under the sun on her, and it all came back to her chronic anaplasmosis.
I'm actually curious how this was determined. Personally I think that a lot of times correlation is mistaken for causation when it comes to tick borne diseases - that is, "because we couldn't find another reason" isn't good enough for me.

Quote:
No, treating will not get 'rid' of the disease, once they have it, it's always there, whether dogs have clinical signs or not.
The disease is not always there, the antibodies are always there.

Quote:
One can choose what they wish as for treatment or taking the tick diseases seriously.
Ahehe, the choice isn't either/or. I take tick borne diseases very seriously but I am not a big believer in chemoprophylaxis or treating blue test dots in a normal dog. Veterinary infectious disease specialists say and over and over again that asymptomatic dogs do not need to be treated, for some reason a lot of people don't listen. I have yet to see a dog who I've taken this approach with subsequently get sick, and we have a lot of dogs who test positive in this area.

Quote:
I only know what i see/hear from my vet's and that is, to many dogs around here die from untreated tick disease that doesn't necessarily have to be clinical.
Again, how is it determined that these dogs actually died from the tick borne diseases?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-18-2012, 07:04 AM
Jynx Jynx is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,071
Default

If you read up on tick disease, it can cause all kinds of organ problems/failure if left untreated / chronic in humans and animals.

The dog could not walk, stiff as a board, high fever, showing clinical signs came on overnite. Bloodwork showed elevated liver enzymes, low blood count which indicates infection, Snap positive for anaplasmosis. All other testing (including xrays/ultrasound) showed 'nothing', put her on a course of doxy, retested in 2 months all bloodwork back in normal range. Granted this could have been a "phantom" thing, (I tend to have dogs who 'get' phantom illnesses on occasion) but all points to anaplasmosis.

As for the liver issues being lepto, no it wasn't.

And your right, alot of dogs will test positive and never show a problem. But I'm not willing to take the chance of them developing a problem.

I suppose we can go back and forth on this till the cows come home..I trust my vet's knowledge and when they tell me they see dogs going straight into liver failure and dying with no clinical signs of tick disease tho the dogs are testing positive for it, I tend to believe them.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-18-2012, 08:16 AM
sassafras's Avatar
sassafras sassafras is offline
such sights to show you
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,589
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx View Post
If you read up on tick disease, it can cause all kinds of organ problems/failure if left untreated / chronic in humans and animals.
I have read up on tick disease, and I've consulted with veterinary infectious disease experts, including a veterinary nephrologist. Although they are not 100% understood, these diseases are NOT thought to generally act chronically in dogs as they do in people, and Lyme nephritis, if it exists, is thought to be an individual, idiosyncratic reaction that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or how long the animal was treated at an asymptomatic stage. That is, in an individual dog, either it's going to happen or it's not no matter what you do. And it happens in a fraction of those 5% of dogs who even show any clinical signs of tick borne disease at all.

To expound, it is thought to be the an individual animal's immune response that "clogs up" the filtering mechanism of the kidney with excessive numbers of antibody-antigen(Lyme organism) complexes, which are too large to be filtered. This starts a cascade of effects that ultimately damages the kidney.

Quote:
The dog could not walk, stiff as a board, high fever, showing clinical signs came on overnite. Bloodwork showed elevated liver enzymes, low blood count which indicates infection, Snap positive for anaplasmosis. All other testing (including xrays/ultrasound) showed 'nothing', put her on a course of doxy, retested in 2 months all bloodwork back in normal range. Granted this could have been a "phantom" thing, (I tend to have dogs who 'get' phantom illnesses on occasion) but all points to anaplasmosis.
No, all does not point to anaplasmosis. All points to a dog with liver disease that also tested positive for anaplasmosis, which is extremely likely in a tick-borne disease endemic area. Just because the dog tested positive for anaplasmosis, it doesn't mean the anaplasmosis caused the symptoms.

Was the liver biopsied? There are many, many things that can cause acute hepatitis. There has never been a reported case of tick borne disease causing liver disease in a dog to my knowledge, maybe your vet should write that case up and submit it to a journal.

Quote:
As for the liver issues being lepto, no it wasn't.
Did you have negative paired titers?

Quote:
I suppose we can go back and forth on this till the cows come home..I trust my vet's knowledge and when they tell me they see dogs going straight into liver failure and dying with no clinical signs of tick disease tho the dogs are testing positive for it, I tend to believe them.
I trust my vet's knowledge, too, since she's me. Unfortunately, there are a lot of vets out there who mis-use the 4DX test. It is NOT an appropriate screening test. That is, it is NOT meant to be used to test every dog, every year and then put the dogs who test positive on antibiotics. It is meant to be used to look for antibodies in a dog showing appropriate clinical signs. I have spoken to multiple infectious disease experts who hold this opinion and they uniformly, across the board recommend NOT treating a dog who tests positive without clinical signs (ie "don't treat a blue dot").

For awhile several years ago we were using the 4DX tests for our heartworm tests, and I can't even tell you how many dogs tested positive for one of the three tick borne diseases without having any signs. We did not routinely put those dogs on antibiotics (although we always gave the owners the option) and several years out I can tell you that not ONE of those dogs has ever developed any problems.

This particular issue makes me peevey because 1. I hate, hate, hate correlation being confused with causation and 2. I don't care for large scale misuse of antibiotics when there is no real evidence to do so 3. There is so much misunderstanding of these diseases floating around.

/rant
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-18-2012, 06:33 PM
Jynx Jynx is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,071
Default

again I'm not going back and forth with you except to say I'm glad your not my vet
Have a good day.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-18-2012, 06:57 PM
sassafras's Avatar
sassafras sassafras is offline
such sights to show you
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,589
Default

I have a feeling I'm glad I'm not your vet, too.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-18-2012, 07:15 PM
crazedACD crazedACD is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: MA
Posts: 2,740
Default

I have to agree with sassafras..it is usually not recommended around here to treat unless the dog is clinical...and I'm in your area. The lyme test shows antibodies..which is NOT the disease itself. Your dog can pick up antibodies from being exposed to a dog vaccinated for lyme.

I know my clinical dog flares up when her immune system is stressed, it occurs after vaccinating. She appears fine otherwise, same activity level, though she does have luxating patellas. Is your shepherd not considered clinical with those symptoms? She certainly didn't 'drop dead' from the elevated liver problems.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-18-2012, 07:44 PM
CaliTerp07's Avatar
CaliTerp07 CaliTerp07 is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 7,637
Default

I definitely avoid going into wooded areas when ticks are prevalent. I have a long haired, thick coated black dog. It's nearly impossible to find/remove ticks from her. She gets advantix religiously each month and Zach and I rub her down constantly searching for them. Most years we pull 10-15 off of her at some point, even when we're being cautious about where we go.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-19-2012, 06:34 AM
chaospony's Avatar
chaospony chaospony is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 637
Default

Yeah, I'm thinking it will take a good hour or two to go over my girls looking for ticks! Too much freaking hair!
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:34 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site