Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dog Training Forum

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-16-2012, 07:52 AM
Taqroy's Avatar
Taqroy Taqroy is offline
Top Dog
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,566

I do. I use a NRM ("cold" or "try again") in training, once they know how to shape, or have a good knowledge of the behavior. If I have to use it more than twice I drop criteria. In real life it varies from "WTF ARE YOU DOING" to "NO" to "EH-EH". I also get into yelling matches with my dogs (which they generally win lol). Mu and Tipper will sit in their crates and go "oof", "OOF", "bark", "BARK" and as far as I can tell they will do that until the end of time. It's very irritating.

I have scruffed Greta for biting me - more out of reaction than planning. When we first got her she wouldn't stop going after your hands if you verbally corrected her. She's much better now and has learned that as soon as her teeth hit my hand she's either going on tie down or in the crate. Once I changed my reaction to the behavior we got along a lot better. I use verbal reminders with her too - "Not yours" is the main one and I usually follow it up by grabbing something that is hers and playing with her.

I have a blog!! TeamShortLegs - Last updated 10/13/2013
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 08:12 AM
RD's Avatar
RD RD is offline
Are you dead yet?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 15,572

In real life situations I use verbal corrections ("NO" and various obscenities) and in training I use no-reward markers ("uh oh!" or "try again"). For clients' dogs, I even skipped NRMs until the dogs were clicker pros.

I've scruffed my dog, picked her up and thrown her, thrown my leg out to stop her and kicked her in the face, etc. in situations where I had to think fast for her safety or the safety of another living thing. Hasn't impacted her too much, our positive interactions outweigh the negative 99.9 to .1.
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 08:24 AM
Maxy24's Avatar
Maxy24 Maxy24 is offline
Top Dog
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 8,040

I don't use verbal correction for any training type situation. If he breaks a sit I just ask again or body block him until he sits again.
I don't intentionally use any NRMs, but I do sometimes say "nope" or tell him he's wrong, but I don't think he knows what any of that means since i use it so infrequently. I don't really see their benefit in training, if he doesn't get a treat he knows it's wrong, I don't see a reason to add a word to it.

I will give a verbal correction on real life situations, when he's pestering the cat I'll say "Tucker stop it" and he does. But usually it will be when I see him about to do something, like he's thinking about taking a napkin off the table, saying his name in "that voice" and he knows I see him and he won't be able to get away with it, so he stops. He will sometimes react with appeasement gestures, usually stretching on my leg or bringing me a toy, but more than anything I think he views the corrections as a signal that he going to fail if he tries to continue because I'm gonna come and block him/remove him or what he's trying to get/squirt him(in the case of stealing). Sometimes I will do a big exaggerated gasp when he is just starting to do something wrong, and that also works. I am willing to give verbal corrections because it works from a distance and doesn't generally cause him any fear. They are not really a primary punisher for him, he's learned what they mean by me getting up and stopping him after saying some verbal correction, so now they can be used as an initial attempt to stop him, if he doesn't believe me I have to get up and stop him, but lately he has listened very well to my voice.

Squirting is about as severe as I get. I "scruffed" him once but it was not an attempt to punish him, my papa had come over, I didn't leash him since I believed Tucker already liked Papa but he went nutso and so I grabbed his scruff (he had no collar on) to keep him from eating papa. He yelped and then I cried.

Thank you ~Dixie's Mom~ for my awesome siggy!
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 08:31 AM
Danefied's Avatar
Danefied Danefied is offline
Top Dog
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Southeast
Posts: 1,722

I spent a very short time using NRM in a training scenario and quickly dropped them. I have smart dogs and NRMs are redundant to them. They know my body language better than I do and of course they know they didn’t get rewarded. Adding a NRM was completely unnecessary and slowed the whole process down.

No verbal corrections in training. I compare it to a kid solving an algebra equation. You don’t give them the problem until you know they can do each step, but even then, sometimes they get the steps messed up. Instead of “no” that’s not the right answer, you take the kid back to the point where he was successful. Tell him “you were right up until *here*” and have him rework the problem starting from *here*. Same in training.

If you’re doing crate games, SG explains it really well when she says “anytime the dog makes a mistake that’s information he’s giving us.” (Or something like that.) Basically, go back, lower the criteria, and build from there.

In real life I will use a “hey” for serious stuff like about to run me over mid zoomie or thinking about having a snark/fight. But 98% of the time simply saying the dog’s name interrupts the behavior.
"We become better trainers by refusing to swallow uncritically what is tossed to us as truth,
by developing our powers of empathy and observation,
and by searching for better ways to teach and educate the dogs we love."
~Suzanne Clothier
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 08:55 AM
~WelshStump~'s Avatar
~WelshStump~ ~WelshStump~ is offline
Top Dog
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 835

I use them everywhere, because Enda is mentally incapable of learning a thing without them! If you never tell her what you don't want, she keeps repeating the behavior, but at slower intervals until she finally just shuts down completely. She needs to be told that she's doing it wrong or is not doing what you want, so that she can mentally move on. And, it's just easier if they all know what "Shut up!" means, because there are times I really do want them to bark out the window or at the door, it's easier to tell them when to stop and enough is enough, than it is to try and get them to bark when strange people are selling their religion at your door.
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 09:25 AM
Shai's Avatar
Shai Shai is offline
& the Muttly Crew
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,216


In training I'll use them if the dog is stuck. Webster is especially prone to throwing out twenty behaviors at once then if my mark came as he offerred the right thing but he was doing something else at the same time he will sometimes fixate on that other thing and do it over and over again with increasing frustration and magnitude. It's sort of funny but also not very helpful past a certain point. A simple "that's not it" will usually reset him.

I also use "oops" for errors made in known behaviors where it's helpful for the dog to know where the error occurred. For some more complicated behaviors with several actions strung together it seems to speed up understanding and avoid a decrease in overall confidence if I an tell them exactly where they went wrong so they know they were right up til that point and what they need to change.

In general life I use a verbal stop to let them know whatever they are doing is not appropriate and guide them to an appropriate alternative. Older pups/dogs only for the most part since with new pups I try to set them up for success in the first place and don't start testing their understanding of rules til later.

ARCHX U-CD Kim MX MXJ NF CL3-SF RL3/2X/1X-COE CGC -- Golden Ditzhund, b. ~Mar'07
MACH ARCHX U-CD Webster MXB MJB RL3/2X/1X-COE CGC -- Flying Houdini, b. ~Jun'07
MACH Mira CDX JH MXS MJS CGC WCX -- Princess Cheeseface, b. Jul'09
Lodin NA NAJ -- Crazy Monkeybean, b. Dec'13
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 09:39 AM
SaraB SaraB is offline
Top Dog
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 5,798

I use a happy "Opps!" to NRM on certain things. I NEVER use verbal corrections during training as I have found it demotivates my dogs, not a whole lot but over time it builds up. I will use a verbal correction around the house. For instance, pestering the cat will get an "eh-eh", if it's an on going problem we will work on learning to ignore the cat and use rewards to teach that. Digging will get an eh-eh and a redirection onto a better activity.

Bazinga, Zip Tie, Zuma, Taboo
Envy, Edgar, Mighty Mouse, Famous
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 10:18 AM
FG167's Avatar
FG167 FG167 is offline
Top Dog
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Jefferson, GA
Posts: 2,708

Absolutely!!! I love NRM I think the more black-and-white I can make things while my dogs/pups are learning, the easier it is. Plus, I am VERY black-and-white person so it comes more naturally to me to give verbal feedback no matter what they are doing.

I do not use verbal corrections unless something SEROIUSLY inappropriate happens while training. I do however use verbal corrections in every day life all the time. But, I rarely, rarely use the word "no". No is reserved for "you are in SERIOUS trouble buddy!". AKA, Eden rarely, if ever hears no. Limit has yet to hear it, and Kastle has heard it probably 5-10 times in his life (he's a year old).
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 10:31 AM
JacksonsMom's Avatar
JacksonsMom JacksonsMom is offline
Top Dog
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 8,678

I've never officially trained a "no" or an "eh eh" but I do use it in every day life if he's about to do something I don't want him to do and he seems to understand it. I guess sometimes I use a "no" while training too ... but it's not like, harsh, or anything. I'm just letting him know that's not what I want him to do.
Brit & Jackson

Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2012, 10:32 AM
Red.Apricot's Avatar
Red.Apricot Red.Apricot is offline
Top Dog
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,982

Elsie'll get too fixated on the toy and go 'deaf' sometimes, and just offer random behaviors in rapid succession. In that case, I'll say, 'wrong,' or 'focus' and she'll usually come back to herself and listen again.

I also use it if she decides she doesn't have to lay down for some reason.

I don't use it while working on new behaviors at all though.
Reply With Quote


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:48 AM.

©1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site