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  #31  
Old 07-06-2012, 03:03 AM
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Red.Apricot Red.Apricot is offline
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What I did was decide I wanted a sheltie, started talking to Terv people, and then found a litter I liked. ;]

Really, I realized they'd fit better with my lifestyle at this point (size, appearance, energy level, that sort of thing) and that I liked the community. Now that I have Elsie, I wouldn't change anything. I'll still probably have another sheltie at some point, but Elsie's the perfect dog for me right now.

That's probably not super helpful.
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  #32  
Old 07-06-2012, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
That's not a bad plan really, though it would be harder with a male. Now someone just needs to let me come meet their dogs.
Collect, freeze and snip. Done. Though personally I don't like the breeders who do that across the board with every male they have (makes me wonder if their dogs can work and be intact or if that was/could be an issue), lots of breeders do it.
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  #33  
Old 07-06-2012, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Red.Apricot View Post
Really, I realized they'd fit better with my lifestyle at this point (size, appearance, energy level, that sort of thing) and that I liked the community. Now that I have Elsie, I wouldn't change anything. I'll still probably have another sheltie at some point, but Elsie's the perfect dog for me right now.
This is a factor for me too. The breed's community.

For many, many years I badly wanted a GSD. Loved Collies too. I had a Collie and several GSDs. I really, really wanted to be involved in GSDs but when I accidentally found Belgians, I them to be a great fit. Part of the deciding factor with them, for me was the community involved in the two breeds. I felt the Belgian world was a better fit for me all around. There are ways I still like GSDs better than Belgians. There's ways I like Belgians better than GSDs. In the end, the Belgians are a more practical breed for me. And now, they are such a natural and normal choice for me that I can't imagine being without them.
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  #34  
Old 07-06-2012, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilter View Post
Collect, freeze and snip. Done. Though personally I don't like the breeders who do that across the board with every male they have (makes me wonder if their dogs can work and be intact or if that was/could be an issue), lots of breeders do it.
The only problem with that idea is that your dog is still getting neutered. Some people actually prefer having intact males.

There are also issues with planning to breed first then spay and compete at a younger age. Sometimes life gets in the way of having litters right at two, puppies are a ton of work and seasons aren't always conveniently timed. If you're talking about a competition dog, breeding can put them out of training/trialing for at least 4 months. Breeding two litters back to back or skipping a heat and having two litters will be putting them out of training/trialing for at least 8 months of a 2 year period. Then if you keep a puppy from a litter, you have just a couple years between your new puppy and your still young competition dog. You also don't have a chance to see how your dog develops, matures and if there are any later onset health issues prior to breeding. Some dogs in my breed aren't fully mature until they are 4ish. And if you want to prove the dog prior to breeding by titling, that puts a lot of pressure to try to get to the upper level titles by time the dog is 2 or 3. And of course having an intact girl in itself is a PITA for trialing...

I'm not saying that any of this will be an issue any other specific poster here. Just food for thought. If one wants to keep their dog intact for whatever reason, the "breed them young or collect then alter" option still may not be ideal for them.
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  #35  
Old 07-06-2012, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
This is a factor for me too. The breed's community.

For many, many years I badly wanted a GSD. Loved Collies too. I had a Collie and several GSDs. I really, really wanted to be involved in GSDs but when I accidentally found Belgians, I them to be a great fit. Part of the deciding factor with them, for me was the community involved in the two breeds. I felt the Belgian world was a better fit for me all around. There are ways I still like GSDs better than Belgians. There's ways I like Belgians better than GSDs. In the end, the Belgians are a more practical breed for me. And now, they are such a natural and normal choice for me that I can't imagine being without them.

Yes! The breed community in Belgians is fabulous. Although some Malinois unsavories are creping in, the vast majority of Belgian people are smart and proactive.

Then I look at the APBT/AmStaf community and hear Dueling Banjos playing in my head...

Oh, and you Koolie people need to start looking into the AKC FSS program. That would give you a lot of options without needing full registration. I am pretty sure FSS breeds can do performance stuff.
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  #36  
Old 07-06-2012, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
The only problem with that idea is that your dog is still getting neutered. Some people actually prefer having intact males.

There are also issues with planning to breed first then spay and compete at a younger age. Sometimes life gets in the way of having litters right at two, puppies are a ton of work and seasons aren't always conveniently timed. If you're talking about a competition dog, breeding can put them out of training/trialing for at least 4 months. Breeding two litters back to back or skipping a heat and having two litters will be putting them out of training/trialing for at least 8 months of a 2 year period. Then if you keep a puppy from a litter, you have just a couple years between your new puppy and your still young competition dog. You also don't have a chance to see how your dog develops, matures and if there are any later onset health issues prior to breeding. Some dogs in my breed aren't fully mature until they are 4ish. And if you want to prove the dog prior to breeding by titling, that puts a lot of pressure to try to get to the upper level titles by time the dog is 2 or 3. And of course having an intact girl in itself is a PITA for trialing...

I'm not saying that any of this will be an issue any other specific poster here. Just food for thought. If one wants to keep their dog intact for whatever reason, the "breed them young or collect then alter" option still may not be ideal for them.
I never said the dog had to be bred at 2. Breed her at 4 & 6 and then spay, or 3 & 5. What's wrong with a 6 year old dog competing in agility, especially if they have already been running other venues for the last 4 years? Or even a 7 year old dog? Yes, there is a risk that certain titles *might* not be completed but the dog will be seasoned to trials by then so the chances of that are slim. Especially with a breed like koolies who have relatively long lifespans. Yes, heats do make competing more annoying, as does taking several months off for a litter but in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. I don't intend on competing nonstop, every weekend with my dogs anyways as I believe they need breaks, but that's just me.
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  #37  
Old 07-06-2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by SaraB View Post
I never said the dog had to be bred at 2. Breed her at 4 & 6 and then spay, or 3 & 5. What's wrong with a 6 year old dog competing in agility, especially if they have already been running other venues for the last 4 years? Or even a 7 year old dog? Yes, there is a risk that certain titles *might* not be completed but the dog will be seasoned to trials by then so the chances of that are slim. Especially with a breed like koolies who have relatively long lifespans. Yes, heats do make competing more annoying, as does taking several months off for a litter but in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. I don't intend on competing nonstop, every weekend with my dogs anyways as I believe they need breaks, but that's just me.
Like I said, that wasn't directed at anyone specifically. It was food for thought with the idea that "you can just breed or collect then alter and compete". A lot of it depends on your goals, what you feel is ideal for yourself/your dogs and what you want in terms of breeding/competing. For example, I never want to neuter a male dog unless there is a medical reason, so that option would be out for me. It would work perfectly for many people though.
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  #38  
Old 07-06-2012, 11:59 AM
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Well I am not big on making decisions, I pretty well narrow it down to a few choices that fit what I am looking for and see where it goes from there (look into breeders and rescues until a particular dog or litter catches my eye). The next breed I specifically know for sure that I want is a collie, I know them, I love them and they suit me. But after that it is a toss up between several different breeds and I really do not know which one will win out.
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  #39  
Old 07-06-2012, 12:06 PM
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Then I look at the APBT/AmStaf community and hear Dueling Banjos playing in my head...
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  #40  
Old 07-06-2012, 12:22 PM
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Thanks all for sharing your experiences!

I guess the biggest question for me at this point in time is which breed is better suited to my lifestyle right now. I know I'll have both breeds in the future, it's just a matter of which comes first. Because after this dog, it will be my last one for quite a while.

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Maybe I'm boring, but..

I think if it ain't broken, don't fix it. I found a breed that I think I really get along with and I don't think I'll probably stray for awhile. Unless I rescue, in which I won't be picky on breed. My problem is that if I get a different breed, will I enjoy it as much as I enjoy labs? However sometimes variety is good.
That's kind of how I feel too. I know Tollers work for me and I love them, so I worry that another breed might not fit quite as well. Even if they sound like they would on paper. I don't really see Koolies not fitting, as they sound incredibly similar to all that I had in and miss about Tango. But one never knows! Which is why I definitely want to meet some before I make a definite decision either way.

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I guess part of the choice would be...how serious are you about Tollers? Are you interested in them from a pet/casual performance perspective only or do you see yourself getting really involved with the breed (showing in multiple venues, going to nationals, possibly breeding, etc). Belgians are my breed for sure. Almost always when I have been able to have another dog, regardless of what I have thought of getting (or keeping) a quality Belgian was more important to me than how much I wanted something else. Actually in almost 15 years, I have opted only to get Belgians...until I decided that I absolutely had to have a PyrShep. For me getting a non-Belgian had to be different enough from a Belgian that another Belgian wouldn't fit just as well, a dog I for sure without a doubt had to have even after 3 years of waiting/researching and timed so I could still keep a puppy from a future Belgian litter. I'm definitely seriously involved with Belgians but I'm very happy I decided to venture out of my "comfort zone" and get a breed not as familiar to me. OTOH there's something really nice about having multiples of the same breed and being so very familiar with a breed that they are totally normal and natural for you to have.

So that probably wasn't too helpful. I tend to think indecision like this will work itself out. In the end, you'll know what you really want. If you have doubts about getting a puppy of any breed, you can always wait for future litters until you're totally sure.
I think I'll always be interested in Tollers just as pets/casual performance dogs. I am serious about the breed and can't imagine ever not having at least one around, but I don't think breeding and showing in different venues is for me. I've definitely thought about it, but it's very expensive, extremely time consuming, stressful (I'd want to make sure I did everything just right), and taking care of a litter is a ton of work. After living with my Dobe breeder for a while with her last litter, that really put things into perspective. I think breeding properly and raising puppies is best left to others at this point, haha. So yeah, I adore the breed but I may not ever venture past just living with them as pet/performance dogs. But who knows. I'm still young and don't know what I want to do with any of my life, let alone what I want to regarding dogs/my breed.

I am sure everything will work out as it's supposed to in the end. I feel like I'd be more than happy with either breed for my next dog. Like I said, it's just a matter of which comes first. I just feel like it's a huge, important decision so I don't want to mess it up.
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