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  #11  
Old 07-04-2012, 10:02 AM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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IMO its unfair to expect 100 years of breeding for aggression counts for nothing. No one here has said this but its a common thought. Give every pit bull a chance but regarding aggression in the breed as "it's how you raise them" is both offensive to the owners and setting the dogs up for failure. Unfortunately it's not exactly how much they want to fight but how they fight.

I have several pit bull clients at our work and I play a few but to say I don't keep a closer eye on their play style would be a lie, I know first hand how much more damaging a pit bull fight can be over a lab fight.

Arnold plays well with a select few. It's cute and I love it. He also can destroy a dog, I'm not bragging, in a very short time and has cost me a lot of money and strife. I'll be very honest, I'm pretty happy most of his teeth are broken now.

Luckily most rescue or pet bred dogs are slightly watered down from game dogs giving the average owner a better chance at managing.

Mostly you won't see as much DA in staffies unless you go for a "terrier" type.

Amstafs all depend on bloodlines and people like Stafinois and bamamutt would be best suited for that answer.
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  #12  
Old 07-04-2012, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
IMO its unfair to expect 100 years of breeding for aggression counts for nothing. No one here has said this but its a common thought. Give every pit bull a chance but regarding aggression in the breed as "it's how you raise them" is both offensive to the owners and setting the dogs up for failure. Unfortunately it's not exactly how much they want to fight but how they fight.

I have several pit bull clients at our work and I play a few but to say I don't keep a closer eye on their play style would be a lie, I know first hand how much more damaging a pit bull fight can be over a lab fight.
I agree entirely, and I absolutely keep a close eye on those pit bull type clients, eps those that are new or that I'm unfamiliar with.

Unfortunately, it's really difficult to talk about this with most clients without them hearing, "YOU HAVE A VICIOUS PIT BULL AND WE HATE PIT BULLS HERE, SO WHY DON'T YOU JUST GO." Especially when the dog appears to be dog friendly based on what they've seen of it. The owners of these dogs (that are average people and not "dog people") absolutely suffer from the "it's all in how you raise them!" mentality.

I sincerely think that some of the dogs we've sent home have owners that think we just don't like the breed/type and are making it up, when in fact almost everybody at our facility loves the type - we just know their tendencies.

Yeah, we give them a chance, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't keep a close eye on them and have a dog walker's card on hand, which is what we give most people whose dogs can't do daycare. *shrug* It's reality. I just wishI found it easier to talk about with the average, well-meaning pit bull owner.
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:16 AM
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I think it depends on the dog and lines behind them.

LoLa was getting attacked a lot...she wanted to play. Well... she does want to play mostly but she also wants to dominate the other dog. I finally realized exactly what was going on. She jumped Judge over nothing. Literally walked up to him and jumped him. She is a naughty brat who is maturing. I think as she matures..she may be become a lot more dog selective.
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  #14  
Old 07-04-2012, 10:36 AM
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Well, I can say managing a daycare that (gladly) accepts bully breeds, I have had the "daycare just isn't the best place your dog" talk with a disproportionate amount of owners of pit bull type dogs. We have NEVER had a human aggressive or sketchy pit bull type, but we have had several pits who presented with some type of dog aggression that made daycare not an option. This does not surprise me; I'm a great fan of the breed/type and well aware of their tendencies. We still give the breed/type a fair shake at work, though.

Very often, unfortunately, the dogs appear to be totally dog friendly to their owners, because their owners only see them play with 1 or 2 dogs. And with 1-2 dogs, they're fine. But the thing about bully breeds, IME, is that their arousal threshold is low, and they go from playing to fighting quickly. For many of them, daycare was just way too stimulating, and they went from "let's play" to "let's brawl!" far too easily. And then it can be really to hard to get them to come down from "let's brawl!" For these types of dogs, half the time, fighting IS good times, so it's definitely shades of gray vs. black and white. Which, again, can make them difficult in a daycare setting.
That was exactly my experience with APBTs (and quite a few APBT mixes) in daycare for years. We did eventually stop taking them. And yeah, it's very hard to tell people that without them thinking that your business is "pit bull haters". I think we settled on saying our insurance wouldn't allow them at daycare and we've yet to find another that would but they were welcome at classes or something (this is OH with statewide BSL, so...). We never had a APBT or very APBT-y mix who ended up being suitable for daycare long term. And at the time, we had 20-30 dogs a day, mixed sizes and all ran together all day with no separation.

Honestly though, after seeing so many come through daycare or rather attempt daycare I developed the opinion that it's not really an appropriate situation to put them in. I think being in an overstimulating environment with other dogs is actually what triggered the DA tendencies in a lot of those dogs. A few were mature adult dogs with no previous history of DA, owners who've taken them all over and never had them show any inclination towards fighting. Then a few months at daycare and they were dogs who could very easily be considered dangerous to other dogs.

I like APBTs, I just wish more owners of them had a realistic idea about the breed.
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Old 07-04-2012, 10:56 AM
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That was exactly my experience with APBTs (and quite a few APBT mixes) in daycare for years. We did eventually stop taking them. And yeah, it's very hard to tell people that without them thinking that your business is "pit bull haters". I think we settled on saying our insurance wouldn't allow them at daycare and we've yet to find another that would but they were welcome at classes or something (this is OH with statewide BSL, so...). We never had a APBT or very APBT-y mix who ended up being suitable for daycare long term. And at the time, we had 20-30 dogs a day, mixed sizes and all ran together all day with no separation.

Honestly though, after seeing so many come through daycare or rather attempt daycare I developed the opinion that it's not really an appropriate situation to put them in. I think being in an overstimulating environment with other dogs is actually what triggered the DA tendencies in a lot of those dogs. A few were mature adult dogs with no previous history of DA, owners who've taken them all over and never had them show any inclination towards fighting. Then a few months at daycare and they were dogs who could very easily be considered dangerous to other dogs.

I like APBTs, I just wish more owners of them had a realistic idea about the breed.
This is very well written. Group situations can be inappropriate for any breed, it depends on the dog certainly. But Bullies, Rotties, German Shepards, redirecting a cocker spaniel in daycare is one thing, a muscular powerful dog having issues is quite another. I also agree with the idea that many rescues come to us discarded because they DON'T have "game".
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:01 AM
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Both of the local daycares here take pit types. One of them males it clear that while they will accept them they do keep an extra close eye one their interactions (something I totally understand encourage), but the other was way more casual about it--too casual, IMHO. It's an indoor dog park as well, do I took Jack there to check it out. One of the employees asked me if I had other dogs, and I responded that I had a pit mix who was dog selective and didn't like most strange dogs. The employee then encouraged me to bring Sally anyway to "try it out." >_<
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:04 AM
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Kind of OT, but are there many GSDs in daycare? I only ask because I see many at the dog park and it never seems to end well. I don't know if it's the breed in general it just our area.
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  #18  
Old 07-04-2012, 11:22 AM
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Kind of OT, but are there many GSDs in daycare? I only ask because I see many at the dog park and it never seems to end well. I don't know if it's the breed in general it just our area.
Not many around our place and it usually doesn't work out for a variety of reasons. Also, IME, GSDs have a very strong tendency towards predatory drift. We have separate areas, so it's not a huge problem for us, but it can be depending on you're set up. We have one that comes and is good in daycare, but most IME don't appreciate being separated from their owners and tossed in with a bunch of strange dogs.

I asked my roommate, who also works at my kennel/daycare, if we had a pit bull type clients that attended regularly, without issue, that were not obviously mixed with some other breed, and honestly, we can't think of any.

ETA: And I agree that daycare is generally not a good situation for most APBTs and pit bull types.

Also, Aleron's observation about pit bull types that may not be dog aggressive in average circumstances becoming DA after attending daycare is accurate IME. I have told that to several clients, using the explanation, "My concern is that he/she is learning and practicing aggressive behavior that he/she will begin to present outside of daycare, and I don't want to see that and I'm sure you don't either."
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Old 07-04-2012, 11:38 AM
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Kind of OT, but are there many GSDs in daycare? I only ask because I see many at the dog park and it never seems to end well. I don't know if it's the breed in general it just our area.
When I worked in boarding/daycare, there were never any GSDs in daycare. Roughly half in boarding were reactive/DA and some had issues with people. There were some awesome ones though...it really depends on the dog. Casey is reactive and not happy at a dog park. Other GSDs I've seen at dog parks were very concerned about patrolling their owners and caused many problems.
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  #20  
Old 07-04-2012, 11:40 AM
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We have 1 really, really good gsd at my work. He's a 4 year old, over weight, rescue male and he can play with anyone. He's a doll! Of course his neighbor, a 2 year old doberman, was in with another trainer and they fought. Supposedly the dobe started it but the GSD ended it.

We also have two schutzhund line, working mentality, screaming, nipping female puppies. I hate playing them most of the time. The younger was good the first couple times but she's getting as rough and ballsy as the older of the two. They both scream and chase and side swipe and bite hard. They're not great with wrestling or just chasing without going in for the bite. I really, really like them and they're a total blast to train with but as far as playing with other dogs I cringe and eye my roll sheet to find the most tolerant dogs I have that day. I found with the younger she did very well one day with a mal puppy and a border collie puppy. She didn't relent when the mal didn't want to play, which usually I wouldn't like, but the mal needed to be pulled out of her shell.

I'll see if I have any videos of her playing style. She's awesome but yeah, for both of them, I don't think group play is ideal.
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