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  #21  
Old 07-01-2012, 11:39 AM
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Aleron Aleron is offline
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Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
Honestly I don't buy the "no kibble and raw at the same time" thing as an across-the-board rule although I've read it in multiple places. The "digests at different rates" thing makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me.

I feed them together at the same meal, and that's how many, many mushers feed their dogs, and I haven't personally seen problems or heard about problems from the mushers I know. YMMV. *shrug*
I worked at a place that made and sold commercial raw food for years. We shipped food directly to clients all over the country and had a very large customer base. Some of the people who bought the food fed it as a sole diet, some fed it with RMBs and some fed it with kibble both separately and mixed together. All the dogs did fine IME the "raw food and kibble digest too differently to be fed together" thing is a rule that is often repeated but no one really knows why or where it came from or if it's actually true. I tend to think some of it comes from people trying to push people into feeding only raw because they feel it's never appropriate to feed kibble for any reason.

My dogs are raw fed and have been for I don't know 13 years? Maybe a bit more. I've raised litters on raw and my current dogs were all either started on raw or switched as puppies or as soon as I got them. That said, I usually keep kibble around just in case I forget to thaw food or am running short. They sometimes get raw and kibble together. They even sometimes get raw, oatmeal, veggies and eggs together. And no issues at all. The last litter I had here had some resource guarding tendencies, so I would leave a bowl of kibble out for them all the time and fed several small raw meals a day. They were all fine too. I switch my dogs to kibble when we travel and they do fine going back and forth.

It isn't really normal for dogs to have super sensitive digestive tracts that need careful management and feeding. They are scavengers by nature, animals who are designed to eat what ever they come across that might be edible. It is normal for them to be able to handle all different foods, to be at least somewhat hungry most of the time, to gorge themselves, to eat things which are overripe or even starting to rot and to have fairly flexible dietary requirements. Of course, some dogs have issues that do require careful management and feeding. And some dogs do better one certain things than others. But in general, dogs have far stronger digestive tracts than people and we eat raw food and processed food together all the time.
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  #22  
Old 07-01-2012, 10:16 PM
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I feel like leaving kibble out all day will make Jackson a much pickier eater. If he knows there's food available all of the time, why should he eat all of the food in his bowl at once? Instead of tossing the raw if he gets picky, put it back in the freezer after 10 minutes and feed him a kibble meal. Then try again the next day, after searing it for a minute.

I've been feeding raw for 7 years, to Gonzo who was not raised eating raw & Fozzie was has eaten it his whole life. Fozzie has a much stronger tummy and can eat basically anything without getting sick. Mixing raw and kibble upsets both of their tummies. And even if it does not make your dog sick, it certainly can, and I don't want to take that risk. Just as I don't feed rawhide with raw, I don't feed kibble, because really the only way dogs contract salmonella and other raw meat born illnesses is when something else s blocking digestion. Preymodelraw.com cautions against it, as do all of the raw feeding books I've read.

Different digestive enzymes are needed to digest either food so more energy is used in trying to complete the digestive process. The pH in a dog's stomach changes to digest grains and starches, as they aren't omnivores or herbivores. It isn't comparable to people eating meat and grains in one meal, as we are omnivores (and a lot of nutritionists don't agree with that anyway). Feeding kibble with raw can change the pH, slowing down the rate of absorption of the kibble, and it can ferment in the GI tract. That slower rate of absorption also gives bacteria from the meat more time to sit in the GI tract.
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  #23  
Old 07-01-2012, 10:46 PM
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  #24  
Old 07-01-2012, 11:19 PM
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I agree that I don't think you need to leave kibble out for him. If you want to do a raw meal in the AM and kibble in the PM or something like that, that's cool... but if he has access to kibble all day he might just decide not to eat the raw. He shouldn't need to graze

I'm kind of a fan of tough love when it comes to eating. My pets don't give me issues (maybe that's why!). Try different brands/flavors to see which ones he's most eager about but I never let things go to waste even if they don't seem thrilled. With the dogs this is never a problem. My cat is way less finnicky than most cats are, but every once in a while he decides that he doesn't really want to eat his chicken. He LOVES pork and never gets bored of that, but I want him to eat his chicken too. So I just keep offering him the chicken and, sooner rather than later, he gets over himself and eats it. Sometimes I'll be generous and mix in a little bit of the pork and that gets him to eat more quickly. But yeah, my pets aren't "allowed" to get bored of their food.... I'm gonna keep offering it, and if they're hungry they'll eat it. I mean, I do it within reason. My cat absolutely hated the bison I tried giving him, no amount of bribing, even with tuna, would get him to eat it. So obviously I'm not going to try that again since there are other meats that he eats without trouble.

For my cat I get 5lb tubs of ground up meat. I spoon it all out into ice cube trays, freeze those, and when they're frozen I then pop them out into ziploc bags. Keep those in the freezer. Then we have a tupperware in the fridge where we keep a couple days worth of meat cubes to thaw, so we just toss in more cubes as needed
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  #25  
Old 07-02-2012, 07:40 AM
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Compare please!

Jackson has never seemed big on Primal. We've tried a few different flavors in the past and then he just eventually... doesn't want it. And I end up wasting a bag.

I was thinking of trying Nature's Variety Duck since I have a $3 off coupon for it.

Also, was thinking about doing 2-3 days worth of the pre-made stuff in the fridge in containers or ziplock baggies maybe. I've always been sooo bad at putting it in the fridge the night before (I know, I'm so lazy) so I think this will work better for me. Anyone else who feeds pre-made, what's your routine?

Also, would probably leave his kibble out for nibbling if he needs. He usually only eats when he's truly hungry, so do you think it's a good idea to have his Acana sitting out too? I used to hear of issues with different digestion rates, but think most don't have an issue feeding kibble one meal, raw the next, etc.
I am strictly a PMR feeder. Pre-made is so much more expensive than real raw.

I store mine in containers because of baggie leakage. Mine are shoeboxes from the storage/organizing section at walmart for $1.00 each. Clear plastic with white lids and they fir perfect in the fridge.

Raw and kibble do have different digestion rates so I wouldn't feed the two at all, but if you do at least do feed one a.m. and the other p.m. If there is even still the slightest kibble still in there when you feed the raw meal you do risk digestive issues. It's really best to just feed one or the other.
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Old 07-02-2012, 07:48 AM
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Sorry, I just really don't buy it. So what if they digest at different rates? Has anyone demonstrated that this affects GI transit times in any meaningful way, or that the pH of the stomach is actually changed, and if it is, to a magnitude that actually affects digestion?

This stuff is accepted as gospel in some circles and it makes absolutely no physiologic sense to me whatsoever. I suspect it came about from people seeing dogs get diarrhea and creating explanations for it, but if I'm wrong I'd love to see some evidence. I'm sure some individual dogs do better feeding them separate, but that doesn't translate to it being necessary for all dogs.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:02 AM
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Some dogs do do better than others with both, but as a whole, dogs are designed by nature to digest raw meat, bones and organs. Kibble is processed man made stuff cooked and full of artificial ingrediants and preservatives not at all natural to a dog. Since they aren't designed for that, it takes their system much longer to digest it.
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Old 07-02-2012, 08:20 AM
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Jess explained our raw feeding schedule very well!

Emma (3lbs) and Rylie (4lbs) eat 2oz a day, Tucker (5.5lbs) eats 3oz a day, Chloe (7lbs) eats 5oz a day, and Rory (35lbs) eats 16oz a day. I split it into 2 feedings (breakfast and dinner).

Bravo ends up being the cheapest for us, since we're using premade with so many dogs. We buy the 5lb chubs and spend between $12 (chicken) and $18 (beef) for them. If I only had one small dog to feed, I'd probably do NV or Primal. I've had a couple of bad experiences with Stella and Chewy's, so I stay away from it now. Their inconsistancies between bags of food (Duck Duck Goose that smelled like it was mixed with lotion and had a lotion-y texture, vs. totally normal bags of it!).

My dogs are also picky about certain raw brands. They won't touch Northwest Naturals or the beef formula of Raw Health.
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  #29  
Old 07-02-2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by naturalfeddogs View Post
Some dogs do do better than others with both, but as a whole, dogs are designed by nature to digest raw meat, bones and organs. Kibble is processed man made stuff cooked and full of artificial ingrediants and preservatives not at all natural to a dog. Since they aren't designed for that, it takes their system much longer to digest it.
Yes I understand that is the assertion, but is there any evidence that kibble actually takes longer to digest and, if it does, that feeding raw and kibble together actually affects digestion in any meaningful way?

Like someone else pointed out, modern dogs are scavengers. For thousands of years no one was looking over their shoulders making sure their diet was just so, or making sure they separated the meat scraps or garbage from the corn mush scraps or garbage. Dogs just got fed whatever. I just can't believe that they can be SO delicate that we're going to endanger them giving them some kibble in with the raw.
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  #30  
Old 07-02-2012, 08:10 PM
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^^ I would never imply that EVERY dog fed raw and kibble mixed is going to get sick or get a bacteria-born illness. Just like not every dog fed rawhides on a daily basis will get a blockage or illness. After almost losing Gonzo to HGE for no apparent reason and paying $3000 in vet bills, I like to play it safe and listen to the many authors and raw enthusiasts who have been feeding this diet for decades, especially after seeing the negative affect on my dogs. To do anything that risks a digestive upset is not worth it to me, when I can just as easily separate the kibble and raw into two distinct meals. I have heard of mushers adding meat to their dog's kibble, and I've heard that they add chunks of muscle meat, not edible bones, which might explain why it doesn't really affect their dogs. Those dogs are also 50x more active than the average pet, and are less prone to diarrhea and such as they burn so many calories and can eat like a horse.

I used to be more casual with feeding, and combined raw and kibble, which is how I found out that it doesn't agree with my dogs. It's worse to feed raw meaty bones and kibble together, as the bones are often not fully broken down when the gut is also full of kibble. When I gave my dogs chicken wings and a kibble meal once, I distinctly remember both of them vomiting up bone pieces. Kibble isn't just like normal scraps that a dog might find while scavenging. It's cooked, extruded, covered in fats that are very prone to growing bacteria, and it soaks up tons of moisture in the stomach. It's just drastically different from any fresh food that a naturally scavenging dog would eat back in the day.
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