Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > Dogs - General Dog Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 06-24-2012, 10:51 PM
sillysally's Avatar
sillysally sillysally is offline
Obey the Toad.
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: A hole in the bottom of the sea.
Posts: 5,032
Default

The question then becomes what makes a breed a breed? How much flatcoat, weim, GSP blood can you add in, and what is the point of it? IMO, if we are going to outcross there should be a clear goal that benefits the breed somehow--improves temperament, health, or working ability--and who makes those decisions?

My issue with "silver labs" is not the pureness of the dogs, but the purpose for breeding them, which seems to be to produce a different color. That doesn't benefit the breed.
__________________

~Christina--Mom to:
Sally--8 yr old pit bull mix
Jack--6 yr old Labrador
Sadie & Runt--12 yr old calico DSHs
Pickles & Kiwi--3 yr old white winged parakeets
Yoda--1 yr old Quaker parrot
Solo--12 yr old Senegal parrot
Sheena--Quarter Horse--3/24/86-6/23/11--Rest Easy Sweet Girl~




Labs do it in the lake.


Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-24-2012, 11:12 PM
Freehold's Avatar
Freehold Freehold is offline
Big Dog
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 156
Default

As for the colour popping up, it wouldn't be hard. A silver (or similar dilute) would have two copies of a recessive gene. So bred to a non-silver (non-dilute) the puppies would most likely have 1 copy recessive, 1 copy dominant (non-dilute). So the silver (dilute) gene could then be passed on recessively for several generations, assuming the carriers were not bred to another carrier. Breed two carriers together you will have 25% non-dilute, 50% carriers, 25% dilute. So if a breeder has one dog who produces a dilute it is clear that somewhere in there a carrier recessive gene has been passed on. If that breeder rebreeds that dog, or breeds a related dog, that gene might show up again (particularly if the breeding is done to the now-known carrier). The only way to weed out the carriers would be to DNA test for the dilute gene, or to remove any breeding pairs who produce a dilute puppy (both sire and dam). But because you wouldn't normally get that dilute who would remove a top breeding dog because of a recessive colour gene? It's pretty complicated really.

I've seen these kind of debates in horses. For example in Arabians there is SCIDS, which in it's active form is fatal. However carriers have no problems at all. Ideally all carriers should be removed from the breeding pool, but because it is so widespread in the breed (though not truly common) it is difficult to persuade people to weed it out. In fact there are concerns that some very important breeding lines might be wiped out if it were removed (fallacy in my opinion...). The theory is that as long as you never cross two carriers, it doesn't matter. There is a DNA test available now, but before you only found out about the positive status of a mare/stallion when a foal dropped dead of SCIDS (about 24 hours after birth).

Even more serious defects like HYPP (which is a dominant gene which has symptoms in both full (HH) and partial (Hh) presence). People still risk breeding Hh horses because they like the type, and they can still produce 50% clear foals when bred to a clear partner... At least Hh x Hh breedings tend to be frowned upon... mostly... as are HH breedings... Doesn't stop people though.
__________________
My Wolfhound Puppy Blog: http://wolfhoundpuppies.blogspot.ca/
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-24-2012, 11:38 PM
sillysally's Avatar
sillysally sillysally is offline
Obey the Toad.
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: A hole in the bottom of the sea.
Posts: 5,032
Default

The majority of these breeders that have these dogs are breeders of "pet bred" labs though--not really bred for a purpose such as hunting or any sort of competition. If the color is just randomly popping up I would question where the breeder got the dogs in question, why they were bred, etc.

The AQHA finally decided to require that all foals with Impressive blood be tested, and the HYPP P/P horses are not eligible for registration. Honestly I don't know why anyone would risk a foal being positive for HYPP. My cousins horse had it and there is no breeding worth that result IMO.
__________________

~Christina--Mom to:
Sally--8 yr old pit bull mix
Jack--6 yr old Labrador
Sadie & Runt--12 yr old calico DSHs
Pickles & Kiwi--3 yr old white winged parakeets
Yoda--1 yr old Quaker parrot
Solo--12 yr old Senegal parrot
Sheena--Quarter Horse--3/24/86-6/23/11--Rest Easy Sweet Girl~




Labs do it in the lake.


Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-24-2012, 11:42 PM
sassafras's Avatar
sassafras sassafras is offline
such sights to show you
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 6,021
Default

Well if the color is so frowned on, I can't imagine any reputable breeders making it known if it popped up in their lines. So it could have been lurking for some time. Not arguing for either "side", but I could see it happening easily.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-24-2012, 11:45 PM
Grab's Avatar
Grab Grab is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,117
Default

Wasn't one of the first kennels to knowingly have a silver Lab also a breeder of Weims? Or am I thinking of something else?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-24-2012, 11:50 PM
sillysally's Avatar
sillysally sillysally is offline
Obey the Toad.
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: A hole in the bottom of the sea.
Posts: 5,032
Default

There are other off colors in labs that pop up though-black and tan, mosaic, etc, that are not kept super secret from what I know. It's pretty commonly known that they exist and can pop up. The issue with silver is not that it's silver, but that it was something introduced by kennels that also kept weims at the same time and therefore likely mixes being claimed as "rare" purebreds, and now (even if they are now 99.99% lab) are being bred pretty much exclusively by BYB (more of which the breed does NOT need) to make $$$ off of a "rare" lab color.
__________________

~Christina--Mom to:
Sally--8 yr old pit bull mix
Jack--6 yr old Labrador
Sadie & Runt--12 yr old calico DSHs
Pickles & Kiwi--3 yr old white winged parakeets
Yoda--1 yr old Quaker parrot
Solo--12 yr old Senegal parrot
Sheena--Quarter Horse--3/24/86-6/23/11--Rest Easy Sweet Girl~




Labs do it in the lake.


Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-24-2012, 11:50 PM
crazedACD crazedACD is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: MA
Posts: 2,907
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyfalcon View Post
Don't forget, we have Labs that point, and often look a little like pointers... I'm surprised brown ticked ones don't show up more regularly.
I was working the other day and this guy had this GSP-y solid chocolate puppy..with a pointer sized docked tail. He was talking to someone about the puppy, and the conversation was fading in and out. I do believe the dog was lab/gsp, and he said he had it AKC registered as a purebred lab and 'if anyone asks I'll tell them the tail got shut in the door'. It was just an odd conversation..but it makes you think.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-25-2012, 12:01 AM
crazedACD crazedACD is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: MA
Posts: 2,907
Default

You know and even people trying to be legit, as in the case of mismarked dogs (like labs with tan points), 'accidents' can happen. Multi-fathered litters aren't all that uncommon and very possible. I've heard of dogs mating through chain link...if they didn't notice the neighbor's rottie slipped over...yknow? Unless the puppies are proved matched to the stud by DNA markers but I don't see any kind of proof like that..
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-25-2012, 12:25 AM
ihartgonzo's Avatar
ihartgonzo ihartgonzo is offline
and Fozzie B!
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 5,903
Default

I have met ONE Silver Lab who actually looked like it could be a purebred. I've met dozens who are very obviously Weim mixes... one was just a giant Weim. All have very strange coats, nothing like a Lab coat. They feel like a Lab who was recently shaved. My friend paid $2000 for their "rare silver Lab". She looked it as a puppy, but grew up to be a looong, low, derpy mutt with a dramatically high rear end, curly tail and extreme human/dog aggression. She looks nothing like a PB Lab. Maybe a Lab x Weim x Basset? Idek!

We got a lot of "silver Labs" at the pet hotel, with horrible confo and the same weird coats. We would joke about the "rare, magical silverlabs!" having "medicinal saliva" and "pooping rainbows" and being made of "unicorn tears and the silver lining of clouds". LOL because their owners were ADAMANT that these were pure, elite silver Labs. I'd always ask, aww is he a Weimaraner Lab mix? And they'd be so offended.

In summary, I think that "Silver Labs" do exist, probably due to Weim being mixed in... even if it was many generations ago. The problem is that reputable breeders NEVER breed for that coloring, so you aren't going to get a quality silver Lab ever. The breeders that do breed for it make tons of money off of scamming people with their unhealthy, inbred and/or mixed bred puppies.
__________________


<3 Erica, Gonzo & Fozzie
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-25-2012, 02:40 AM
Teal Teal is offline
...ice road...
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Northern California
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stafinois View Post
I've seen blues, too. And yellows with dilute pigment

Silver labs are common here. They typically look more like a Weim/Chessie cross and often have ectropion.

It's pretty telling that the lines they descend from come from breeders who also had Weims.

Occam's Razor?


I wasn't saying that they don't exist.. I was merely saying that a blue dog is not a dilute of a chocolate dog, because they is genetically impossible
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:49 AM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site