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  #21  
Old 06-24-2012, 01:32 PM
Psyfalcon Psyfalcon is offline
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Well, at this point, I wouldn't be too surprised if silver popped up. Get one chocolate dog from breeder X and another from Y when X and Y really share ancestry at some point but were only carriers of a recessive gene.

How it got there in the first place is a separate issue, and how it became common is another separate from an individual breeding.

Don't forget, we have Labs that point, and often look a little like pointers... I'm surprised brown ticked ones don't show up more regularly.
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  #22  
Old 06-24-2012, 01:42 PM
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IMO, from everything I've read...a silver Lab is not a "true" Lab. I highly doubt it is just a random mutation that cropped up.

And I know it shouldn't factor in to deciding whether or not the color is a legitimate color, but I think every single breeder I've seen breeding "silver" Labs is a breeder I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
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  #23  
Old 06-24-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Psyfalcon View Post
Don't forget, we have Labs that point, and often look a little like pointers... I'm surprised brown ticked ones don't show up more regularly.
Well a lot of retrievers also point...that doesn't mean they were bred with a Pointer...many retrievers were and are used as all-purpose dogs who flush and/or point to varying degrees in actual hunting situations so that tendency wouldn't have been bred out per se. Heck FCRs and Curlys can run spaniel hunt tests in AKC which is a flush and point and retrieve test. Doesn't make them spaniels.

On the other hand...sometimes what happens in the back kennel stays in the back kennel...and it's not that hard for the wrong dog to be written on the registration, either intentionally or accidentally.
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2012, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *blackrose View Post
IMO, from everything I've read...a silver Lab is not a "true" Lab. I highly doubt it is just a random mutation that cropped up.

And I know it shouldn't factor in to deciding whether or not the color is a legitimate color, but I think every single breeder I've seen breeding "silver" Labs is a breeder I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
I've seen a few very nicely typed silvers and charcoals in this area. It's just an unaccepted color IMO - which if by cross breed or random event is here to stay. There was a time when chocolate was a highly frowned upon color - even today some tones of chocolate and yellow are considered truer than others. *shrugs*
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Old 06-24-2012, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *blackrose View Post
IMO, from everything I've read...a silver Lab is not a "true" Lab. I highly doubt it is just a random mutation that cropped up.
I guess one can question if they are or are not "true Labs" either way (if it really was a random mutation or if outcrossing introduced it). How far off from an outcrossing does it take for the resulting dogs to once again be considered purebreds? Can you look at the bobtail Boxers and say that they aren't purebred Boxers?

People get very bent out of shape about having "true" and "pure" lines in the purebreds but the truth is, that is a very modern way of thinking about breeding. Historically breeds were almost never as "pure: as they are kept today. Some breeds considered separate breeds now were in the past just variants of one type of dog. Even today, if a certain dogs are considered separate breeds or varieties of the same breed can differ depending on the country or registry involved. And even when breeds were becoming more standardized, outcrossing was done when people needed to add a certain trait (structure or temperament) that wasn't easily found in the available population of the breed. In modern times, there has been outcrossing done in secret in various breeds and probably more than anyone really knows.

Not saying I support or don't support the breeding of Silver Labs. Or that they are or aren't a naturally occurring mutation. Just food for thought
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  #26  
Old 06-24-2012, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
Well a lot of retrievers also point...that doesn't mean they were bred with a Pointer...many retrievers were and are used as all-purpose dogs who flush and/or point to varying degrees in actual hunting situations so that tendency wouldn't have been bred out per se. Heck FCRs and Curlys can run spaniel hunt tests in AKC which is a flush and point and retrieve test. Doesn't make them spaniels.

On the other hand...sometimes what happens in the back kennel stays in the back kennel...and it's not that hard for the wrong dog to be written on the registration, either intentionally or accidentally.
I don't think there is any pointing in a Spaniel Trial. Last I checked, they were docking points for soft flushes, ie slowing, or pausing before flushing.

Retrievers in the field flush, so even if they came to point naturally, its not to their working standard to point... and yet a lot of people are breeding them like the out of standard dilutes.
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  #27  
Old 06-24-2012, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
I guess one can question if they are or are not "true Labs" either way (if it really was a random mutation or if outcrossing introduced it). How far off from an outcrossing does it take for the resulting dogs to once again be considered purebreds? Can you look at the bobtail Boxers and say that they aren't purebred Boxers?

People get very bent out of shape about having "true" and "pure" lines in the purebreds but the truth is, that is a very modern way of thinking about breeding. Historically breeds were almost never as "pure: as they are kept today. Some breeds considered separate breeds now were in the past just variants of one type of dog. Even today, if a certain dogs are considered separate breeds or varieties of the same breed can differ depending on the country or registry involved. And even when breeds were becoming more standardized, outcrossing was done when people needed to add a certain trait (structure or temperament) that wasn't easily found in the available population of the breed. In modern times, there has been outcrossing done in secret in various breeds and probably more than anyone really knows.

Not saying I support or don't support the breeding of Silver Labs. Or that they are or aren't a naturally occurring mutation. Just food for thought
In my whippet research project I found that NON whippet lines where introduced in the 80s!! That dog was struck from the registry but is progeny were left. I agree the idea of 'pure' is a strange and weird one. Its only been really the last 50 years or so where its become accepted that a breed is 'pure'.
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  #28  
Old 06-24-2012, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyfalcon View Post
I don't think there is any pointing in a Spaniel Trial. Last I checked, they were docking points for soft flushes, ie slowing, or pausing before flushing.

Retrievers in the field flush, so even if they came to point naturally, its not to their working standard to point... and yet a lot of people are breeding them like the out of standard dilutes.
a behavior is completely different from a physical characteristic health problems. the world is full of dogs that don't act or function according to the "working standard" like retreivers doing PP, herding, bomb/drug detection or seeing eye. it doesn't make them not retrievers because they do an off job.
another good example is cur dogs. the originals in britain had to hunt silent for their & their owner's safety. in colonial america the need continued. post civil war the open mouth sports that had always occurred in the breed became the preferred version east of the mississippi until now it is virtually impossible to find a silent Mt cur. mostly due to hogs, silent hunters stayed the style of choice.
how dogs act & work is constantly changing w/o changing what the breed is at it's root.
i think the root issue is dishonesty about how the dilute came into the breed & the associated health issues of the color.
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  #29  
Old 06-24-2012, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
In my whippet research project I found that NON whippet lines where introduced in the 80s!! That dog was struck from the registry but is progeny were left. I agree the idea of 'pure' is a strange and weird one. Its only been really the last 50 years or so where its become accepted that a breed is 'pure'.
Very interesting! And that was just one time when people found out about it. No doubt it's gone on many more times, in many more breeds without notice.
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  #30  
Old 06-24-2012, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
In my whippet research project I found that NON whippet lines where introduced in the 80s!! That dog was struck from the registry but is progeny were left. I agree the idea of 'pure' is a strange and weird one. Its only been really the last 50 years or so where its become accepted that a breed is 'pure'.
closed studbooks/gene pools & breeds are an invention of the late 19th century. i think maybe the cattle registries have it right. you record your crosses & keep grading up until you reach a certain purity to become registered as pure (usually 7/8).
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