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  #51  
Old 06-11-2012, 10:53 AM
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yoko yoko is offline
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Originally Posted by Danefied View Post
Yay! Great to hear you’ve seen improvement in your last two walks. A puppy owner’s mantra should be “this too shall pass, this too shall pass, this too shall pass.” LOL! Keep it up, and definitely look in to some impulse control - remember the goal with impulse control exercises is that it has to be 100% the dog’s choice. Otherwise she won’t learn SELF control, she’ll simply learn that you can control her - not the same lesson.

Which leads me to hitting dogs...
I really wasn’t going to get in to this, but it doesn’t seem to be sinking in, so I figured what the hey, give it a shot.

The act of smacking a dog (or a human child) in and of itself is not that big of a deal. I have two dogs who are very rough and tumble and the rougher I am, the happier they are. Heck, just yesterday I was trying to read a magazine that kept having a dog head appear in the middle of the pages. Finally I looked at the dog and said “you want me to play with you?” and proceeded to smack him around with the magazine which he thought was awesome. I’ll chase my kids up the stairs “spanking” them and they think its great. DH left a bruise on DD throwing her around in the pool - fun times.

Its not that dogs or kids are made of glass and they’ll break over a “pop” on the butt or nose. Its that as a way of teaching anything useful, popping, smacking, swatting etc., is really very INeffective. IOW, while it may appear to work, its not teaching what you think its teaching.

Lets take the bed example. You want to teach the dog to get off the bed. Fair enough. All dogs should have a “get off the furniture” cue.
So you start by popping the dog on the nose. Which you say gets the dog to “listen” to you.

Yes, popping a dog on the nose will likely get his attention. Once or twice. But how effective is that long term? For one, dogs (and humans) desensitize to physical aversives fairly quickly. Second of all, do you really want to have a relationship with your dog where he pays attention to you only so he can duck when you go to pop him?

Why not simply teach an attention cue? Teach a cue that means “hey, I’m talking to you, get ready to listen to what I’m about to say.” For most of us that’s the dog’s name. Ever know someone who has to spell the dog’s name (or w.a.l.k. or d.i.n.n.e.r.?) In our house all dogs have a code name for when we want to talk about them, not to them. Why? Because if you say the dog’s name, and they are anywhere within hearing distance, you will have said dog in your face boring holes in to your soul with his eyes. (Okay, maybe not that extreme, but sometimes that’s what it feels like!)

How’d we teach name = attention? Simple. From day one pair the name with good things. Name then feed. Name then new toy. Name then pets. Out on walks? Name then point out a squirrel, or a smell the other dogs have gotten in to - oh yeah, environmental rewards are the best! And when I have to do something like nail trims or bath, I do NOT use the dog’s name. I simply go up to that dog, and lead them to their doom, uh, nail trimming.

What’s so great about pairing the dog’s name with good things, is that dogs don’t desensitize to rewards the same way they desensitize to aversive stimulus. That’s how they’re built. Most dogs are built to overcome painful or annoying stimulus in order to achieve a reward. Rewards hold more power to motivate than punishers. If you know how to reward effectively.

The other thing that’s pretty ineffective about the nose popping is that it doesn’t give the dog much information. You want the dog to do two things yes? 1. listen up, 2. get off the bed. Okay. So the nose popping doesn’t cue any of that. All it really does is get the dog to stop the forward motion on to the bed (that is until the dog desensitizes and then it will do nothing at all). Other than stopping the dog from pushing his way on to the bed, the nose pop gives the dog ZERO information about what you DO want him to do.

There are 101 things he can do instead of climbing on your bed, including biting the hand that hit him, cocking his leg on the bed and marking it, running out of the room with your bra, etc.
However, if you teach him “off” there is only ONE correct response to that cue. Way less guesswork for the dog huh?
Take a treat, or simply take him by the collar, and lead him off the bed (or sofa) while saying “off”. Rinse and repeat. Ta da! Now you have a cue that the dog understands to mean one thing (get off).

I know this is long, but hopefully its helpful too.


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  #52  
Old 06-11-2012, 12:47 PM
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I've got her on a regular collar at the moment - a head collar we've tried on her once and it didn't seem as secure as a regular collar and she kept pawing her face to get it off....we'll probably re-visit it soon - and get her used to it slowly; let her have dinner in it, give her treats while she's got it on etc.
With the curs I used to clip my leash to the GL and a backup chain, which kept them from slipping away entirely. As for introducing it, definitely pair it with mealtimes or even a special treat (ie: peanut butter or something she only gets when she's wearing the GL). It does take some dogs a little while to get used to it, but it gives more leash control and keeps her more mindful of you (which is part of the problem: once she gets riled, she's losing her selective focus).

Quote:
Ditto on her inhibition - she's much better in a "normal" situation at home etc - quite good actually. But when she gets in those fits - she forgets all about the concept of inhibition.
Yep, absolutely. Again, it's the loss of self-control that you are really dealing with. As long as she is under control of herself, the behavior is not an issue.

Quote:
I'll work on the impulse control as well definitely - and your suggestion of the games is great. Thank you so much! You have catahoulas? I've only met two but I think they're such cool dogs.
We do indeed! One is ours and I hunt with seven others on a regular basis. They are spectacular animals, but they definitely require some creative training sometimes! What breed is your dog again? (sorry, I don't remember if you said in your original post what sort of LGD she is!)
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  #53  
Old 06-11-2012, 01:30 PM
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Mine occasionally has a fit of biting the leash when crossing streets. Loud cars with those annoying exhausts set him off. He has gotten better of the last couple of months.
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  #54  
Old 06-11-2012, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danefied View Post
Yay! Great to hear you’ve seen improvement in your last two walks. A puppy owner’s mantra should be “this too shall pass, this too shall pass, this too shall pass.” LOL! Keep it up, and definitely look in to some impulse control - remember the goal with impulse control exercises is that it has to be 100% the dog’s choice. Otherwise she won’t learn SELF control, she’ll simply learn that you can control her - not the same lesson.

Which leads me to hitting dogs...
I really wasn’t going to get in to this, but it doesn’t seem to be sinking in, so I figured what the hey, give it a shot.

The act of smacking a dog (or a human child) in and of itself is not that big of a deal. I have two dogs who are very rough and tumble and the rougher I am, the happier they are. Heck, just yesterday I was trying to read a magazine that kept having a dog head appear in the middle of the pages. Finally I looked at the dog and said “you want me to play with you?” and proceeded to smack him around with the magazine which he thought was awesome. I’ll chase my kids up the stairs “spanking” them and they think its great. DH left a bruise on DD throwing her around in the pool - fun times.

Its not that dogs or kids are made of glass and they’ll break over a “pop” on the butt or nose. Its that as a way of teaching anything useful, popping, smacking, swatting etc., is really very INeffective. IOW, while it may appear to work, its not teaching what you think its teaching.

Lets take the bed example. You want to teach the dog to get off the bed. Fair enough. All dogs should have a “get off the furniture” cue.
So you start by popping the dog on the nose. Which you say gets the dog to “listen” to you.

Yes, popping a dog on the nose will likely get his attention. Once or twice. But how effective is that long term? For one, dogs (and humans) desensitize to physical aversives fairly quickly. Second of all, do you really want to have a relationship with your dog where he pays attention to you only so he can duck when you go to pop him?

Why not simply teach an attention cue? Teach a cue that means “hey, I’m talking to you, get ready to listen to what I’m about to say.” For most of us that’s the dog’s name. Ever know someone who has to spell the dog’s name (or w.a.l.k. or d.i.n.n.e.r.?) In our house all dogs have a code name for when we want to talk about them, not to them. Why? Because if you say the dog’s name, and they are anywhere within hearing distance, you will have said dog in your face boring holes in to your soul with his eyes. (Okay, maybe not that extreme, but sometimes that’s what it feels like!)

How’d we teach name = attention? Simple. From day one pair the name with good things. Name then feed. Name then new toy. Name then pets. Out on walks? Name then point out a squirrel, or a smell the other dogs have gotten in to - oh yeah, environmental rewards are the best! And when I have to do something like nail trims or bath, I do NOT use the dog’s name. I simply go up to that dog, and lead them to their doom, uh, nail trimming.

What’s so great about pairing the dog’s name with good things, is that dogs don’t desensitize to rewards the same way they desensitize to aversive stimulus. That’s how they’re built. Most dogs are built to overcome painful or annoying stimulus in order to achieve a reward. Rewards hold more power to motivate than punishers. If you know how to reward effectively.

The other thing that’s pretty ineffective about the nose popping is that it doesn’t give the dog much information. You want the dog to do two things yes? 1. listen up, 2. get off the bed. Okay. So the nose popping doesn’t cue any of that. All it really does is get the dog to stop the forward motion on to the bed (that is until the dog desensitizes and then it will do nothing at all). Other than stopping the dog from pushing his way on to the bed, the nose pop gives the dog ZERO information about what you DO want him to do.

There are 101 things he can do instead of climbing on your bed, including biting the hand that hit him, cocking his leg on the bed and marking it, running out of the room with your bra, etc.
However, if you teach him “off” there is only ONE correct response to that cue. Way less guesswork for the dog huh?
Take a treat, or simply take him by the collar, and lead him off the bed (or sofa) while saying “off”. Rinse and repeat. Ta da! Now you have a cue that the dog understands to mean one thing (get off).

I know this is long, but hopefully its helpful too.
Great Post!

And yes, they do bore holes into your soul.

Since Gipsy can't hear very well anymore, we clap to get her attention. She comes, when we clap. We taught her about 2 years ago, to pay attention when we clap. Clap + treat, clap + toy, clap + loves = Gipsy pays attention everytime now.
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  #55  
Old 06-11-2012, 04:36 PM
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I'm not going to even reply. Because what I said was completely misread and misunderstood. I used it to teach him the command "off". Occasionally he needs refreshers. He is the only dog I have to use physical correction with out of my dogs. And yes, I do treat him for correct behavior. I don't just pop him and expect him to know what I mean. And he doesn't duck. I dont have some flinching dog that I beat. So...okay, whatever you say.
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  #56  
Old 06-11-2012, 06:40 PM
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Danefied Danefied is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
I'm not going to even reply. Because what I said was completely misread and misunderstood. I used it to teach him the command "off". Occasionally he needs refreshers. He is the only dog I have to use physical correction with out of my dogs. And yes, I do treat him for correct behavior. I don't just pop him and expect him to know what I mean. And he doesn't duck. I dont have some flinching dog that I beat. So...okay, whatever you say.
You can’t use P+ to teach an animal to DO a behavior. It only functions to stop a behavior. You could use it to teach the dog NOT to get on the bed to begin with, but there is no way (based in behavioral science) that a smack on the nose can teach a dog to get off a bed. Unless the dog enjoys being smacked and you’re using it as a reward.

Let me explain.
Positive = adding something (like in math).
Negative = taking something away (like in math).
Reinforcement = causes a behavior to repeat.
Punishment = causes a behavior to diminish.

So, using the above, we have:
Positive reinforcement (R+) something the dog likes is added to make a behavior repeat. Dog sits gets a cookie. (Assuming the dog likes cookies.)
Negative reinforcement (R-) something the dog does not like is taken away to make a behavior repeat. Dog gets leash corrections until he is in heel position, once in heel position corrections stop.
Positive punishment (P+) something the dog does not like is added to make a behavior stop. Dog jumps and gets a knee in the chest. (Assuming the dog is not a typical lab who thinks getting pummeled is fun.)
Negative punishment (P-) something the dog likes is taken away to make a behavior stop. Dog jumps at you for attention and you turn your back and walk away.

All of the above is contingent on the dog’s opinion of what you’re adding and taking away.
The only way using a pop on the nose to teach a dog TO get off the bed (as opposed to teaching him not to get on the bed to begin with) is if the dog enjoys being popped on the nose.

If he doesn’t like you popping him on the nose, then see my previous post about desensitization.
Pretty much all trainers - regardless of their philosophy on corrections - agree that R+ is the most effective way to teach a behavior.

Hopefully some of this makes sense to you.
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  #57  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:15 PM
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Yes, and I agree that it is the best way to go. But other methods do work when others fail.

I used it to teach him off by showing him what I didn't want him to do, then what I wanted him to do. He would crawl up on the bed without permission, forcing his way past me when I was physically pushing him off and saying off. I popped him and said no, and when he got off (because he doesn't like being popped) I rewarded him for getting off when told. He caught on pretty quickly, and only needs reminders very rarely. And yes, I did try only rewarding for getting off with no corrections involved whatsoever, but he didn't listen and continued to force his way past me. Malyk is a little slow (even though he is a great dog) and needs to be shown what he ISN'T supposed to do as well as what he IS supposed to do. This isn't the only instance where I have to show him the difference. My other dogs all respond fine to simply being shown what TO do, but he dos not.

Edit: I am teaching him that getting on the bed when I say no and off is not what is desired and I reward him when he gets down when asked.
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  #58  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:21 PM
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Oh, NVM... Just realized who you are.

You’ve had Malyk for what, 4 months? Yeah...
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  #59  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:26 PM
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Six. And I asked for this conversation to end a long time ago, because what I do with my dog is really none of anyone else's business. I do not move forward unless given advice from experienced trainers, and I'm not just beating my dog. I pop him on the nose. Don't like it? Get over it. I do it in training, and whether I communicate it correctly on here or not, I do know what I am doing and it has worked. So, if you want to tell me what I did was "wrong" when I had amazing success with it...then you go right on ahead.
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"Only when the last tree is cut, only when the last river is polluted, only when the last fish is caught, will they realize that you can’t eat money." –Native American proverb
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  #60  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara! View Post
Six. And I asked for this conversation to end a long time ago, because what I do with my dog is really none of anyone else's business. I do not move forward unless given advice from experienced trainers, and I'm not just beating my dog. I pop him on the nose. Don't like it? Get over it. I do it in training, and whether I communicate it correctly on here or not, I do know what I am doing and it has worked. So, if you want to tell me what I did was "wrong" when I had amazing success with it...then you go right on ahead.
You ask for it to stop, yet you keep responding. Stop responding and the conversation will stop. Your actions and your words are saying 2 different things.
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