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  #11  
Old 06-03-2012, 10:38 AM
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Emily Emily is offline
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Ok... no one's saying it doesn't work with certain dogs. No one is doubting that you've used it successfully. I'm glad you have. I've worked resource guarding with dogs and food too - professionally.

But I do entirely doubt that you could use it with my bitch when the mere presence of food amps her up around other dogs. I've said before that your timing does not matter. You can't "reward her before she amps up". Well, ok, you can - once. Then once food becomes a part of the picture she's now guarding you AND the food. That's it. It just doesn't matter how good you think your timing is. If she thinks there's a chance that food is in the picture, she's totally over aroused. Associating the approach of other dogs with food would make my dog go, "Other dogs are coming, time to guard my food!" It's nice if it doesn't work this way for the dog but sometimes it does. Whether or not you want to believe me isn't really my concern, I guess.
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:48 AM
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Oh, I believe you. I know what you mean and I wouldn't want you to think I don't. You should see Toker, my son's dog. She is one of the most intense dogs I've ever seen....about everything, especially food. So maybe you've seen dogs that are really berserk. This just comes out when food is around and there have even been a couple of incidences where she appeared to be guarding my son from the other dogs, not humans. But those were very infrequent and we again, used food in their presence to show her that the other dogs near by was a good thing that didn't make my son go away and in fact, brought on some goodies. The goodies came BECAUSE the other dogs were around. (so she thought) So there was no need to guard food or my son.

How much distance between your bitch and other dogs does it take to reduce her arousal level around a more boring piece of food? Have you ever tried conditioning her to their presence at a great distance? I'm sure it could be mellowed down some. I wouldn't like to live with that. I think I'd have to lock the dogs up separately any time food was in the picture. So, you mean you can't cook dinner with them together in the room or have a picnic? LOL. That sounds insane. My guess is that it could be calmed down a few notches.
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post

How much distance between your bitch and other dogs does it take to reduce her arousal level around a more boring piece of food? Have you ever tried conditioning her to their presence at a great distance? I'm sure it could be mellowed down some. I wouldn't like to live with that. I think I'd have to lock the dogs up separately any time food was in the picture. So, you mean you can't cook dinner with them together in the room or have a picnic? LOL. That sounds insane. My guess is that it could be calmed down a few notches.
No, we live quite normally thank you, as she doesn't behave that way with dogs in the home.

Around kibble (boring), for her to have no nasty intentions, strange dogs should be about 15-20ft, although it depends on a lot. Namely her arousal level in the first place. If she's already eyeing an approaching dog, tossing food at her makes her gobble urgently it down while she stares at them (clearly raises her arousal level). At what point will she actually snap at the other dog? They have to be pretty in her face.

ETA: Please keep in mind that I show this dog and take her to training to clubs without issue unless somebody's dog gets right up in her face. She's a hard ass but in no way a pyscho. Just not a Golden Retriever, lol.
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:52 AM
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I have the same kind of bitch Emily has who resource guards and adding food to the picture causes the same issues. My bitch guards her space, me and food. She's guarded other resources too - sleeping spots, toys or stuff she has possession of...even water bowls. Some of the worst issues I had with her involved dogs getting loose at class and running up on her while I had food because there were three "to be guarded things" in play - me, her space and food. For dogs like that, the more "things to be guarded" you add, the more intense the guarding becomes. For such dogs, what Emily is suggesting is IME a very good approach.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:08 AM
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Zoey, my dad's puppy, had human resource (hrr) guarding issues for a while, trying to keep the older shepherds away from her person, and adding food made it worse; there was more to guard. He ended up just dumping her off his lap or ignoring her when she started up. Of course, she was 16 weeks old, and doing it for attention, so she figured it out pretty quick.

Elsie, weirdly, doesn't guard her food against strange dogs at all, but won't let dogs she knows near her when she's eating a meal. Treats are fine, she has no problem with them getting treats, kongs or bones. Just her food dish, just dogs she already knows.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:19 AM
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Hmmm...I wonder why it's worked for me. Maybe the dogs I've worked with haven't been as wildly intense as the dogs you have worked with. I dunno. Toker is pretty amped up but doggie zen seems to work with her. Professionally, I've worked with a few that were pretty bad but maybe not as difficult as the ones you mention. They just learned that to get what they want, certain things have to happen and certain things must not happen.
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Old 06-03-2012, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Emily View Post
Yeah, I dunno, if you've dealt with corgi bitches before, you know that adding food into an equation that's already guardy is a bad idea. Tried it, been there. LOL. Food will often just increase the arousal level in these situations. Keeva will guard me from dogs at work that she feels are too pushy, and adding food to the situation didn't work well at all, for anybody - especially for the stupid labs who thought she didn't REALLY mean go away.

This sounds like a great case for mat work. Teach her to drive to the mat and then add duration (no moving until released), just like a stay. Or crate games! What about crate games, using a pop-up crate? Then she also has a sense of safety and privacy from pushy puppies.
This describes Mu exactly. As soon as I add food into the picture I am a DOUBLE resource. If we're in class we have three resources, me, the space, and the food like Aleron mentioned. She does have an awesome mat cue, I'll work on ramping that up for at home. I think a crate will work better at my parent's house tho - I've been putting off getting crate games but I think it's time. Max can't get to her in a crate and since he thinks the banshee screams are a giant game there's no way he'd respect her space on a mat lol.

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Keeva screams when she's trying to drive dogs off too, it makes me lol. I dunno about Mu, but Keeva DOES NOT do your typical "resource guarding" behavior, hunched shoulders, growling - non of that. She just goes, "I DARE you..." and then when they push it, they get a face full of teeth. So far, she's just learning that acting like an ass gets you booted from my lap.

Oh corgis, LOL.
Yeah she gives the side eye for a specific amount of time (depending on how fed up she is) and then launches at them. You have no idea how relieved I am that not just my dogs acts this way.

Dober - I have tried adding food into it. It just doesn't work for Mu. She's way too intense and she already doesn't like dogs in her personal space. I think that tactic would work on either Murphy or Tipper - but I don't have this problem with them.
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  #18  
Old 06-03-2012, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
Hmmm...I wonder why it's worked for me. Maybe the dogs I've worked with haven't been as wildly intense as the dogs you have worked with.
LOL they're called herding breed bitches

Really though, it's not uncommon for herding breed bitches to be this way. Not saying they all are of course or that they are all as intense about it. But having a bitch of many of the herding breeds who has strong genetic tendencies towards being guardy about and/or intolerant of other dogs getting into their space/near their person/near their stuff (or hey looking at their stuff or something that could at some point become their stuff) is not really unusual.
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  #19  
Old 06-03-2012, 07:29 PM
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I've only had one herding breed; German Shepherds, but they've all been males. And my Doberman, I might call a herding breed even if he was really in the "working" group. He had very strong herding instincts, seeing as how lots of herding breeds went into their make-up. But anyhow, he wasn't overly guardy. And professionally, I've worked with a lot of dogs with resource guarding issues and most of them calmed down, got distracted with food, not the other way around. It was as if they had their brains re-wired...new circuits installed. lol.

I am very lucky to have dogs that get along so well. Chulita will give a little snarl if she thinks she's going to be stepped on when she's on the couch and Jose` gets up there. But I don't think she worries about losing her spot or anything. One little snark and he moves out of the way. No more said. lol. And he is such a softie. He would never dream of speaking against Miss Diva.

Well Taq...I hope whatever you do will work out and stop this problem. Best of luck to you!
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #20  
Old 06-03-2012, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily View Post
Yeah, I dunno, if you've dealt with corgi bitches before, you know that adding food into an equation that's already guardy is a bad idea. Tried it, been there. LOL. Food will often just increase the arousal level in these situations. Keeva will guard me from dogs at work that she feels are too pushy, and adding food to the situation didn't work well at all, for anybody - especially for the stupid labs who thought she didn't REALLY mean go away.

This sounds like a great case for mat work. Teach her to drive to the mat and then add duration (no moving until released), just like a stay. Or crate games! What about crate games, using a pop-up crate? Then she also has a sense of safety and privacy from pushy puppies.

Keeva screams when she's trying to drive dogs off too, it makes me lol. I dunno about Mu, but Keeva DOES NOT do your typical "resource guarding" behavior, hunched shoulders, growling - non of that. She just goes, "I DARE you..." and then when they push it, they get a face full of teeth. So far, she's just learning that acting like an ass gets you booted from my lap.

Oh corgis, LOL.

Also, Cthulhu7... Just because a dog doesn't want to tolerate a rude puppy near its owner doesn't mean it has "socialization issues." Dog on dog tolerance is highly variable based on way more than socialization. Heeler/cattle dog types are not known for dog tolerance nor are they SUPPOSED to be uber friendly with every dog. A desire to control the movements and behaviors of other animals in part of their nature.
Keeva and Quinn must be sistas from another mista!
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