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  #101  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:28 AM
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maybe our resident constitutional scholar can chime in on why the will of the people is not how this country is governed. I think a nice change of pace would be to return to the days when Christians were persecuted. Maybe remind them of what it's like not be able to live the life they choose. Remind them of what it's like to have to sneak, hide and face real tragic consequences for just trying to be who they are. Remind them what it feels like to not have the protection in numbers they seem to enjoy right now. I nice refresher course of what it's like to be the minority would be a nice change of pace. Maybe even a remedial course on the origins of marriage
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  #102  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Fran101 View Post
So, ok, some people believe that due to Jesus's sacrifice, only those commandments in the new testament count.
This is a little simplistic, but basically, yes. The Old Testament (covenant) did have a different set of rules. It required a different set of criteria for forgiveness of sin.

Jesus's death and resurrection was the perfect payment for ALL of mans sin. ALL of it, forever. Remember this as I go on....

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Now, I have done quite some research on this issue.. all those years in catholic school did kind of teach me to know my way around a bible lol and Strictly speaking, the New Testament says nothing at all about homosexuality SPECIFICALLY, I'll explain more of that later.
In the FEW times it is mentioned, it would seem that it is said to be bad because it is tagged along with adultery, prostitution and adultery. Not really bad in itself.
How "specific" does it need to be?

Romans 1:24-25
"24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."

Mankinds 'logic' is one of those created things. I am not asking you to just blindly listen to God Fran. Just take note of what He tells us.

Romans 1:26-27
"26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

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At most, there are only three passages in the entire New Testament that refer to what we today would call homosexual activity. None of the four gospels mentions the subject. This means that, so far as we know, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, and we simply have no way of determining what his attitude toward it might have been.
The entire Bible is the inspired Word of God. Its ALL His Fran. You cannot pick the Bible apart, I know. It either IS ALL true, or NONE of it is.

Jesus is God incarnate. The Bible is Gods Word spoken to us. That is how we know His 'attitude'.


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Ok, so... why the focus on homosexuals? I mean, Corinthians does put them in the same bucket as fornicators, adulterers etc..
Indeed. Sin is sin and no one kind of sin is less than another. This thread is about homosexual marriage though. (Don't give up yet, i'm getting there. LOL)


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Divorce. <snip>

ok, so, now committing adultery, wouldn't that NOW put the newly divorced woman in the SAME bucket as the homosexuals?

..why do people cherry pick that homosexuals don't deserve to marry and are a sin.
..but that divorced women can remarry and aren't adulterous?

HOW COME ANYONE WHO HAS SEX WITH SOMEONE THEY AREN'T MARRIED TO GETTING THE SAME KIND OF TREATMENT?
..that isn't the bible IMO or it's teachings. That's personal. It's cherry picking. It's a lot more difficult to say all adultery is wrong because hey, sex is fun.. and not waiting til marriage is normal these days.
then it is to point at gay people and condemn.
Excellent point Fran. You are correct. Why DO people tolerate one kind of sin and condemn others? All I can offer is because it's a line not yet crossed. Yes, thats a poor answer, but its all I got. We have crossed so many other lines, to our own peril, why go even farther?

Its comes back to Jesus and His sacrifice. I am not perfect, but I will do everything I can to live the way He asks us too. It is for our own good afterall. Be careful about applying mans reason to Gods Law.
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  #103  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Fran101 View Post

Ok, so... why the focus on homosexuals? I mean, Corinthians does put them in the same bucket as fornicators, adulterers etc..

and speaking of adulterers, in both old and new testament it would seem the bible is pretty clear about one BIG issue.

Divorce. The Bible is very clear on this one: No divorcing. You can't do it. Because when you marry someone, according to Mark 10:8, you "are no longer two, but one flesh." And, Mark 10:9 reads, "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Mark gets even more hardcore about it a few verses later, in Mark 10:11-12, "And He said to them, 'Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.'"

ok, so, now committing adultery, wouldn't that NOW put the newly divorced woman in the SAME bucket as the homosexuals?

..why do people cherry pick that homosexuals don't deserve to marry and are a sin.
..but that divorced women can remarry and aren't adulterous?

HOW COME ANYONE WHO HAS SEX WITH SOMEONE THEY AREN'T MARRIED TO GETTING THE SAME KIND OF TREATMENT?
..that isn't the bible IMO or it's teachings. That's personal. It's cherry picking. It's a lot more difficult to say all adultery is wrong because hey, sex is fun.. and not waiting til marriage is normal these days.
then it is to point at gay people and condemn.
You are saying that we are ONLY focusing on gay-marriage because we are in a conversation ABOUT gay-marriage. I DO NOT AGREE WITH DIVORCE. I do not think it is OK for people to divorce and remarry 4 times! I do not think it is OK to have sex before marriage. I believe people sin and make mistakes, we are human, but we are to repent, to ask for forgiveness. Not to be ok with doing it and repeating it over and over.
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  #104  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by zoe08 View Post
You are saying that we are ONLY focusing on gay-marriage because we are in a conversation ABOUT gay-marriage. I DO NOT AGREE WITH DIVORCE. I do not think it is OK for people to divorce and remarry 4 times! I do not think it is OK to have sex before marriage. I believe people sin and make mistakes, we are human, but we are to repent, to ask for forgiveness. Not to be ok with doing it and repeating it over and over.
But are u voting to make it illegal?
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  #105  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:34 AM
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Yes religion influences values, and I can see where that becomes blurry on some issues. Gay marriage is not one of them. It seems all anyone can bring is "god said so." If your only real reason is "god said so," I think it is totally wrong to force what you acknowledge is just your religion on other people.

And I totally agree with Fran about divorce and adultery. Either try to turn the USA into the Christian version of Saudi Arabia or recognize that YOUR PERSONAL religion and all of its nuances should not govern the country.
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  #106  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by zoe08 View Post
You are saying that we are ONLY focusing on gay-marriage because we are in a conversation ABOUT gay-marriage. I DO NOT AGREE WITH DIVORCE. I do not think it is OK for people to divorce and remarry 4 times! I do not think it is OK to have sex before marriage. I believe people sin and make mistakes, we are human, but we are to repent, to ask for forgiveness. Not to be ok with doing it and repeating it over and over.
Would you vote for a law banning divorce?

How about a law banning sex before marriage?

I don't agree with people divorcing and remarrying over and over again, but it's none of my business so I would never try to push my ideals on other people.
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  #107  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Fran101 View Post
So because one child is "miserable" because of one couple's parenting you don't approve of..
all gay parents shouldn't be allowed to have children?

My little cousin has two gay parents who adore her and she is now living a life full of love, care and happiness.
but hey, using that logic, perhaps she was better off in a crowded orphanage in Haiti where she barely had enough to eat.

There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not pretend that all heterosexual couples are AMAZING parents.
I was asked for an example. I gave one.

What do you people want from me? LOL I'm not going to agree with you.

The ONLY reason they chose to have that child is to flip the world off. "We are gay, hear us roar." The human reason for that kid being here is because they rebelled.

He is a nice kid and my hearts weeps for him. I know something good will come from it, but he was dealt a crappy hand. God has a way of making good on that though.
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  #108  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Puckstop31 View Post
I was asked for an example. I gave one.

What do you people want from me? LOL I'm not going to agree with you.

The ONLY reason they chose to have that child is to flip the world off. "We are gay, hear us roar." The human reason for that kid being here is because they rebelled.

He is a nice kid and my hearts weeps for him. I know something good will come from it, but he was dealt a crappy hand. God has a way of making good on that though.
But like I said, that can happen in ANY marriage. Plenty of straight people have kids for all the wrong reasons as well.

Heck, it is generally easier for straight people to have kids. Most gay couples need to go through adoption or sperm donations. It takes a lot more effort to even have a kid for gay people.
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  #109  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by MandyPug View Post
Puck, I'm genuinely curious.

What if Hannah grew up and identified as homosexual? This goes against your beliefs. Would you not want her to have all the rights she deserves like any other person no matter their orientation? Would you try and "straighten her out" like a lot of religious folks do when a family member identifies as anything but hetero? This is a valid question and it's a difficult one for ALL parents no matter their beliefs.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You do not want your rights taken away, don't do it to others. Marriage between two consenting adults is NOT HURTING ANYONE. Canada has not imploded, nor has Argentina, Belgium, Iceland, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, South Africa, and Sweden. All countries who have legalized same sex marriage nationwide.
I have answered this question SO many times.... Ill do it again.

I would stand with God. Period. I would love her to my last breath, I would die for her with no thought. But I would NEVER put her eternal soul at risk just to codify the sins of her flesh.
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  #110  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ~Jessie~ View Post
Our neighbors are gay and have two little girls they adopted. They do EVERYTHING for their children... I always see them toting their kids to various lessons/activities, they go to private school, they have a backyard full of fun things, go out of town on vacation all of the time, etc, etc. Any little girl would be lucky to have a family like that!
I get told my anecedote is invalid, but this one is?
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