Kelpie vs Koolie vs BC vs English Shepherd??

[Shai]

I've decided Kim is 1/2 Koolie, 1/4 Border Collie, and 1/4 English Shepherd by personality lol.

[FG167]

They all sound awesome. I love the sounds of the English Shepherd for a "later on" dog

Originally Posted by Equinox

sport bred dogs and Malinois would be in a different group.

I would not get a German Shepherd for competitive Flyball or Disc Dog,

Hm, then they would probably not suit me now LOL Kastle is sport bred (Schutzhund is a sport...) and is extremely competitive in Flyball. Due to his speed, size and athleticism I often call him my little Malinois in a GSD body. I had a KNPV bred Dutch Shepherd so I am aware of what a Malinois is like I love them - I just prefer the nerve in the GSD that I have now. Obviously not stopping me from getting a Mal sport mix so maybe someday I will go back. Who knows

The info on this thread is amazing and I've really enjoyed learning! Next I want to learn about Pyr Sheps!!!

[Equinox]

Originally Posted by FG167

They all sound awesome. I love the sounds of the English Shepherd for a "later on" dog



Hm, then they would probably not suit me now LOL Kastle is sport bred (Schutzhund is a sport...) and is extremely competitive in Flyball. Due to his speed, size and athleticism I often call him my little Malinois in a GSD body. I had a KNPV bred Dutch Shepherd so I am aware of what a Malinois is like I love them - I just prefer the nerve in the GSD that I have now. Obviously not stopping me from getting a Mal sport mix so maybe someday I will go back. Who knows

The info on this thread is amazing and I've really enjoyed learning! Next I want to learn about Pyr Sheps!!!

I think Kastle would be my perfect balance of flashy, sport dog and stable working dog. Between him and CharlieDog's Knox, I'll have a couple of places to look if I wanted a Malinois-like GSD.

When I say "sport dog" (this was discussed before in a thread from months ago) I only really refer to the people on the end of the spectrum. I don't typically classify breeders as working dog breeders vs. sport dog breeders unless it is someone who very specifically produces and focuses on dogs for a venue such as Flyball, and I almost exclusively throw this term around for Border Collies and sport mixes.

Oh, and didn't mean to imply that you didn't know what they were like, I remember Madix and know you handle both Kastle and Ike exceptionally well (nothing but respect for being able to stack Ike so well ). Probably would have been better if I phrased that as an analogy.

[AdrianneIsabel]

I would not get a gsd to be a competitive Flyball dog, they're just not built for it. I do however love a balanced gsd for bitesports and companion dogs.

I do believe most any dog can do most any sport but I'm referring to a goal of being highly competitive.

[JacksonsMom]

Originally Posted by stafinois

My in-laws have an English Shepherd that will be a year old next month. She came from a breeder/farm who raises sheep and cattle, and her parents seem to handle the stock quite well. Her parents are as the breed should be, all purpose farm dogs. They herd the stock, guard the farm, work as pest control, and will even tree varmints. My in-laws have retired and sold off their stock, but Cassie is still a nice well-rounded country dog.

I've never watched her interact with strangers, as it's always just us when we are out there. I'll have to ask about that.

*dies*

I am really falling in love with ES's through chaz.

[crazedACD]

Hmmm. Now, are Kelpies fairly biddable? I know I've seen a handful of them running agility, but would they be apt to do obedience and work closely with the owner? I've seen some notes that they are less prone to DA than the ACD which is nice.

For me, the disadvantage with Kelpies is finding a decent breeder as so many are strictly working bred dogs. It would go against most of what I think to get a dog from parents not OFA'd at least. I've had a look around and haven't found anyone that does genetic testing. There's also something to be said for breed variances, though this seems to be kennel by kennel. There are some nice, clean, almost fine boned dogs..and then thicker, more heavy set types.

I'm really considering a sport dog puppy in the next year or two and I can't decide. I've only seen a Kelpie once ever, never seen one work except in person. ACD or Kelpie? ACD or Kelpie? ACD or Kelpie? Romeo is everything I could want..but will probably be totally blind in the next year or so. Romeo is very happy and likes people and is excited to do stuff. He does know when to be alarmed, though. I am fairly aware he is a little atypical for an ACD in regards to strangers, and I don't mind a dog that ignores strangers, but I definitely don't need a dog that is horribly suspicious. I guess that is my other question with Kelpies, though perhaps it would be variable with socialization.

So...ACD or Kelpie?

[FG167]

Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel

I would not get a gsd to be a competitive Flyball dog, they're just not built for it. I do however love a balanced gsd for bitesports and companion dogs.

I do believe most any dog can do most any sport but I'm referring to a goal of being highly competitive.

Oh I got him for IPO, the flyball thing is just a bonus He is running just over 4 seconds in flyball right now at 10 months old. I have hope that he'll get under 4 when he's mature.

[Sit Stay]

I just typed up this massive reply and lost it ... I am so bummed out. I could kick myself!

I just wanted to say that Grace you're so accurate with your GSD/ES comparison. Especially your point that they are less defensive - and gentle is a great word and one I use pretty frequently to try and describe Quinn. Quinn, though she can be stubborn and hard headed is quite soft in the way she interacts with you. She would never ever run into you or forget where you are in a moment of high excitement and has never barked demandingly at me or anyone else. While she certainly will run around and have fun this dog has never even gotten those crazy-eyed, butt tucked zoomies. I would almost say she's very dignified!

Quinn and Trent sound very similar to me. From what I gather they are both intelligent, serious, love to work but with a superb built-in off switch. They are both big thinkers - I remember someone saying on here that if you were to throw a ball of a cliff the Malinois would jump and the GSD would stop and pick its way down. Quinn is totally the GSD in this! She is very aware and has a lot of self preservation. She will do what you ask her to (she only won't when it's not safe or she isn't comfortable, and gets very concerned, until you convince her it's safe or present another option) but she will process the command. She is very much a "co-pilot" type of dog - we have a lot of mutual respect and trust for each other and listen to each other. She is not afraid to doubt me or look at me like I'm an idiot (believe me, she has many times). Going off of that she's a very serious dog - she gets quiet and intense while turned "on". Very still until you give her that "break!" and then she's off and low to the ground. I remember running around like an idiot trying to get her excited for some reason when she was a young puppy - she stood still, tail over her back, and grumbled at me. As soon as I settled down she went back to her normal chill self and was happy to continue working (quietly) with me. As I have said many many times on here Quinn is the supervisor, enforcer, and fun police of the house. She does not like it when anyone (especially dogs) are the scattered, "weeeeee!" type of excited or misbehaving. I'm not sure if it's her just disliking that type of crazy energy or if she's concerned about them running into/jumping on any of her people. Maybe a bit of both.

It's true that ESs are the all purpose farm dog and are the odd man out of the group if there is one. Farmer's didn't want a herding dog and another dog for catching rats and another dog for coming in the house and watching the kids. The English Shepherd can do all of this. They are loose eyed and upright herders, capable of working all kinds of stock - as Grace said, they should be tough enough for cattle but smart and gentle enough for ducks and sheep. Because they are independent thinkers they should be able to determine to use the least amount of force necessary to move an animal. I remember reading a story of an ES that discovered the only way to get a stubborn ewe to move was to nibble her armpits and that's how he moved her for years. They are quiet and relaxed workers generally.

They should take care of vermin around the farm (rats, mice, snakes, groundhogs, etc). For Quinn her hunting instinct took awhile to kick in, possibly because she is naturally so accepting of other animals. I think it started when the cat started bringing her mice! She will now tree squirrels and chipmunks, and birds have always caught her eye. Her granddam, dam, and half sister all have a lot of hunting and treeing instinct and probably developed this quicker than Quinn as they all work together and influence each other. ESs should be able to differentiate between unwanted vermin and family pets though. They are often fond of their lambs and kids and feel attachment to their stock. Quinn adores anything small and baby (I think her heart would swell with love at the sight of a lamb). The cat mentioned above was feral when we found her and we tamed her only because she and Quinn were so attached to each other. Not only does she bring Quinn her kills but she also brought her her kittens when she had a litter in the barn loft. Quinn loved those kittens - washed them, slept with them, played with them (allowed herself to get crawled all over, pounced on, batted at, and grabbed with sharp little claws) and was obsessed with making sure they were all together and no one was missing at all times. Quinn was more worried, then upset, then mopey than the cat was when the kittens left for their forever homes.

Quinn also melts at the sight of a child, like Trent! This isn't even something that has come with maturity - she's very noticeably had a soft spot for children as young as 2-3 months old. She likes adults but children make her turn into mush and smile. She will actually sneak kisses too, which is unusual for her with adults. She is very gentle, accepting and tolerant of children and always has been. I don't know how many times children have run over to her or popped up and put their arms around her - there is never even ever a moment of surprise or apprehensiveness, she loves it all. A year and a half year old boy once mauled her for a couple of hours - hugging her, kissing her, sticking his hands in her mouth and she never lost patience or got uncomfortable. Just happy to see a kid!

I should note again that Quinn is more stranger friendly than a lot of ESs I've known/heard about. Unless someone is very odd or we don't welcome them she is overjoyed to make friends. She's always been like this though - I remember the breeder saying she took the puppies to her kid's school and all these kids initially came running out at the puppies. The puppies, understandably, froze and sunk back a bit except for Quinn who ran out alone to greet them like "Oh, you're here to see me!!".

I should also note that I am new to the breed, which is incredibly uncommon here (I ADORE this breed though, I am so proud of them and their history!). Quinn's breeder is a small breeder (one breeding bitch at a time and has very few litters) and the only one in the province. The only confirmed ESs I've met have been dogs bred by her, though thanks to email and FB I am able to contact very knowledgeable and experience people within the breed. I linked to her site earlier and will again for anyone interested in the breed - Mary Peaslee is one of these people. She has lots of good articles, pictures and videos stashed all over her site. She writes so well - I've never seen anyone describe my dog better (myself included!). She is a good one to look at too if you're interested in working stock or understanding how they work - not only are her dogs "chore" dogs, but many have titles on all kinds of stock.

Here's her homepage
http://www.englishshepherds.net/

And some good articles
http://www.englishshepherds.net/standard.html
http://www.englishshepherds.net/articles/esare.html
^ I like the "Bossy" point because it's SO Quinn!
http://www.englishshepherds.net/working.html
^ From the above article:

English Shepherds are thinking dogs; intelligence and problem-solving take precedence over pure "instinct" in shaping English Shepherd working behavior. This is a subtle but important difference to consider when comparing English Shepherds to many other herding breeds. Over the past several decades, some of those other breeds have been increasingly defined by hard-wired, stereotyped behaviors, in particular "strong eye". English Shepherds are not an "eye" breed. Their approach to livestock is upright and free-moving; with experience, they adjust the degree of pressure applied to fit the situation and maintain a relaxed attitude, stepping in when needed but not necessarily attempting to control every step along the way.

English Shepherds see the Big Picture when working, so understanding the GOAL of the job is key to eliciting their support. Emphasis on drills and mechanical repetition of skills -- unattached to a clear job -- is unlikely to be an effective approach to training an English Shepherd and may result in a loss of motivation as the dog starts to question YOUR intelligence for subjecting it to pointless exercises.

English Shepherds need to be allowed to learn through experience (you can't teach experience!) and to work out situations with a reasonable degree of freedom (you may find your dog's solution to a problem better than your own!). For some excellent advice on training, and food for thought, read Ray Hunt's philosophy -- yes, he trains horses not dogs, but 99% of what he teaches is relevant regardless of species!

In addition to the complex character described above, English Shepherds should have an instinctive ability to both gather and drive livestock; many are natural low heelers, most are willing to work the front or the rear as needed to get a job done. English Shepherds do not generally cast as wide as Border Collies, however with experience most learn to rate well and are able to adjust the amount of pressure they apply to move stock calmly and quietly. In addition, English Shepherds often have an ability to settle their stock by adopting a relaxed attitude (as opposed to the hard eyed stare typical of some other breeds). This enables them to work closely without upsetting their stock. English Shepherds should have enough natural confidence and power to move stubborn livestock, while at the same time possessing a kindness that keeps them from being overly rough with fragile animals.

Oh jeez, that was a novel!

[Cardi4851]

One of my dogs is a Kelpie/Cardigan Corgi Mix. He is not what I would call biddable in the since of a border collie. He is very quick to learn, and as long as you can convince him that you really do know what you are talking about he is quick to respond. If he doesn't like what he is hearing though, he just sort of shrugs and does what he thinks is best. I could not tell you how typical that is for a Kelpie, but he is remarkably more independent than my purebred Cardigan (who isn't exactly falling all over himself to do whatever I say).

He is one of my favorite dogs I have ever owned. Ultimately though, I had to leave him with my parents when I moved out because he isn't happy without at least a 5-6 mile run everyday (and really if you want him to be enjoyable to live with at all it is more like 8). Again, no idea how typical any of this is for the breed since he is a mix, but thought I'd chime in.

[Toller_08]

Originally Posted by Linds

You should find that document Toller and post it! Would be very interesting.

Soon I hope I can give a better idea of Koolies, it's hard when I only have my boy and all the rest of my info comes second hand from all the friends and breeders I know.

I don't have it anymore, otherwise I would. It was very helpful to me. Unfortunately my computer wheezed it's last wheeze a few days ago though, and we have a new one now. So I don't have that document anymore. Which is too bad, as I kind of feel like there is a Koolie craze happening right now and the comparisons I made might put things into slightly better perspective. I pretty well decided a year and a half ago that a Koolie would likely be my next dog, but I still wanted to make comparisons and gather as much info as possible, as there was no point importing a Koolie if I'd be just as happy with a more easily available breed. I just hope this Koolie craze sticks to Chaz and doesn't venture to the rest of the world. I'm starting to feel a little over protective of them, much like I do Tollers, and I don't even have one yet, haha.

Basically what I found is that Koolies seem to be sort of a nice balance between Kelpies and Border Collies. I crossed Aussies off the list for now only because they reminded me too much of what I like about Tollers, and if I'm going to have a dog like that, it's going to be a Toller. And I never looked into English Shepherds too much because, as others have said, they're more of a happy all purpose farm dog and that is not what I was looking for. I want a high energy, high drive, willing to please, intelligent, eager to learn dog that I can get serious about certain sports and games with (Agility, perhaps Flyball, and I'm really hoping for another Frisbee dog). And I don't believe, as nice as they are, that an ES is the best fit for that.

The people I've talked to with Kelpies say that their dogs are biddable, but they can also be rather independent thinkers. They try hard and never give up, but often like to find their own way of doing things. At the same time though, they all said that their Kelpies were the most handler orientated dogs they've ever had. Kelpie people also told me that noise sensitivity can be an issue in the breed (though more common in Kelpie/BC mixes), and that while they are people and animal friendly, reactivity seems to be becoming a bigger thing. There also appeared to be a pretty big show and working split, similar to what you see in Border Collies. They like to have fun, but are rather serious also, which again reminded me of Border Collies. And from what people have told me, they seem to have a tougher, no non-sense attitude but at the same time are rather sensitive.

Border Collies, as much as I love them, I worry too much about reactivity and noise sensitivity. This comes from owning a BC mix (who, while mixed, acted way more BC than Toller) and also from talking to other BC owners and getting to know more in person. They also seem more prone to OCD behaviours and neurotic tendencies than Kelpies or Koolies. And to be honest, I had a really hard time finding nice Border Collie people. They seem a very political breed and a lot of people were downright rude to me when I asked about their dogs. Basically, if I wasn't going to work sheep, I would be a terrible owner. So that kind of turned me off. But really, I was set after finding a breed with all of the qualities I liked about Tango's temperament but also a breed that was not prone to her bad qualities (she was extremely noise phobic and dog reactive). And after having Dance, I was also seeking a breed that had a more minimal chance of being people shy or even too reserved. I'd still like a BC one day, but not right now.

Koolies, from talking to Lindsey and other owners, seem to have all of the qualities I was looking for for the most part. The only thing that I don't really care for is the barking, but whatever. I figure most herding breeds like their voices and that's just something that comes with it. And I do like vocal dogs, just as long as I can control actual barking somewhat. What it came down to basically is that Koolies seem slightly more handler focused and people pleasing than Kelpies, everyone I've spoken to says that they are very people and dog friendly (big plus for me), they are not prone to being overly spooky or sensitive to things as much as BCs or Kelpies can be, etc. And they don't seem quite so serious. They like to work but they appear to make everything into a fun game. And again, I prefer that they're more upright than stalky. It's hard to explain why really, but there is just something that clicks for me when it comes to Koolies that is missing with BCs and Kelpies. Both are breeds I seriously thought about getting before I decided to look into Koolies more, and I love both and would like to have both one day (if I live long enough for all these dogs lol), but Koolies just seem more suited to me right now.

There are plenty of similarities between all of the breeds, but the differences are enough to make me go "this is the breed I want, and while I like these breeds, I don't like this, this or this about it".

I was the last person to ever think I'd ever import a dog from anywhere. Especially sight unseen as far as breeders go. But I just feel strongly that a Koolie is a better fit for me right now, and so I'm jumping in and doing it.

The list I'd made was better, as it kind of pinpointed everything cleanly rather than just my jumbled thoughts above, but hopefully that sort of helps anybody trying to find differences. I wish I knew some Koolies or Kelpies in person to give a better review, but I don't. I have met Kelpies, but don't know them, and obviously Koolies are not very common here so I've never met any. I've met lots of Border Collies and talked to lots of owners. And it's also always different living with a breed, too. You can only find out so much about a breed without living with it I think.