Kelpie vs Koolie vs BC vs English Shepherd??

I've decided Kim is 1/2 Koolie, 1/4 Border Collie, and 1/4 English Shepherd by personality lol.

They all sound awesome. I love the sounds of the English Shepherd for a "later on" dog

Hm, then they would probably not suit me now LOL Kastle is sport bred (Schutzhund is a sport...) and is extremely competitive in Flyball. Due to his speed, size and athleticism I often call him my little Malinois in a GSD body. I had a KNPV bred Dutch Shepherd so I am aware of what a Malinois is like I love them - I just prefer the nerve in the GSD that I have now. Obviously not stopping me from getting a Mal sport mix so maybe someday I will go back. Who knows

The info on this thread is amazing and I've really enjoyed learning! Next I want to learn about Pyr Sheps!!!

I think Kastle would be my perfect balance of flashy, sport dog and stable working dog. Between him and CharlieDog's Knox, I'll have a couple of places to look if I wanted a Malinois-like GSD.

When I say "sport dog" (this was discussed before in a thread from months ago) I only really refer to the people on the end of the spectrum. I don't typically classify breeders as working dog breeders vs. sport dog breeders unless it is someone who very specifically produces and focuses on dogs for a venue such as Flyball, and I almost exclusively throw this term around for Border Collies and sport mixes.

Oh, and didn't mean to imply that you didn't know what they were like, I remember Madix and know you handle both Kastle and Ike exceptionally well (nothing but respect for being able to stack Ike so well :rofl1. Probably would have been better if I phrased that as an analogy.

I would not get a gsd to be a competitive Flyball dog, they're just not built for it. I do however love a balanced gsd for bitesports and companion dogs.

I do believe most any dog can do most any sport but I'm referring to a goal of being highly competitive.

*dies*

I am really falling in love with ES's through chaz.

Hmmm. Now, are Kelpies fairly biddable? I know I've seen a handful of them running agility, but would they be apt to do obedience and work closely with the owner? I've seen some notes that they are less prone to DA than the ACD which is nice.

For me, the disadvantage with Kelpies is finding a decent breeder as so many are strictly working bred dogs. It would go against most of what I think to get a dog from parents not OFA'd at least. I've had a look around and haven't found anyone that does genetic testing. There's also something to be said for breed variances, though this seems to be kennel by kennel. There are some nice, clean, almost fine boned dogs..and then thicker, more heavy set types.

I'm really considering a sport dog puppy in the next year or two and I can't decide. I've only seen a Kelpie once ever, never seen one work except in person. ACD or Kelpie? ACD or Kelpie? ACD or Kelpie? Romeo is everything I could want..but will probably be totally blind in the next year or so. Romeo is very happy and likes people and is excited to do stuff. He does know when to be alarmed, though. I am fairly aware he is a little atypical for an ACD in regards to strangers, and I don't mind a dog that ignores strangers, but I definitely don't need a dog that is horribly suspicious. I guess that is my other question with Kelpies, though perhaps it would be variable with socialization.

So...ACD or Kelpie?

Oh I got him for IPO, the flyball thing is just a bonus He is running just over 4 seconds in flyball right now at 10 months old. I have hope that he'll get under 4 when he's mature.

I just typed up this massive reply and lost it ... I am so bummed out. I could kick myself!

I just wanted to say that Grace you're so accurate with your GSD/ES comparison. Especially your point that they are less defensive - and gentle is a great word and one I use pretty frequently to try and describe Quinn. Quinn, though she can be stubborn and hard headed is quite soft in the way she interacts with you. She would never ever run into you or forget where you are in a moment of high excitement and has never barked demandingly at me or anyone else. While she certainly will run around and have fun this dog has never even gotten those crazy-eyed, butt tucked zoomies. I would almost say she's very dignified!

Quinn and Trent sound very similar to me. From what I gather they are both intelligent, serious, love to work but with a superb built-in off switch. They are both big thinkers - I remember someone saying on here that if you were to throw a ball of a cliff the Malinois would jump and the GSD would stop and pick its way down. Quinn is totally the GSD in this! She is very aware and has a lot of self preservation. She will do what you ask her to (she only won't when it's not safe or she isn't comfortable, and gets very concerned, until you convince her it's safe or present another option) but she will process the command. She is very much a "co-pilot" type of dog - we have a lot of mutual respect and trust for each other and listen to each other. She is not afraid to doubt me or look at me like I'm an idiot (believe me, she has many times). Going off of that she's a very serious dog - she gets quiet and intense while turned "on". Very still until you give her that "break!" and then she's off and low to the ground. I remember running around like an idiot trying to get her excited for some reason when she was a young puppy - she stood still, tail over her back, and grumbled at me. As soon as I settled down she went back to her normal chill self and was happy to continue working (quietly) with me. As I have said many many times on here Quinn is the supervisor, enforcer, and fun police of the house. She does not like it when anyone (especially dogs) are the scattered, "weeeeee!" type of excited or misbehaving. I'm not sure if it's her just disliking that type of crazy energy or if she's concerned about them running into/jumping on any of her people. Maybe a bit of both.

It's true that ESs are the all purpose farm dog and are the odd man out of the group if there is one. Farmer's didn't want a herding dog and another dog for catching rats and another dog for coming in the house and watching the kids. The English Shepherd can do all of this. They are loose eyed and upright herders, capable of working all kinds of stock - as Grace said, they should be tough enough for cattle but smart and gentle enough for ducks and sheep. Because they are independent thinkers they should be able to determine to use the least amount of force necessary to move an animal. I remember reading a story of an ES that discovered the only way to get a stubborn ewe to move was to nibble her armpits and that's how he moved her for years. They are quiet and relaxed workers generally.

They should take care of vermin around the farm (rats, mice, snakes, groundhogs, etc). For Quinn her hunting instinct took awhile to kick in, possibly because she is naturally so accepting of other animals. I think it started when the cat started bringing her mice! She will now tree squirrels and chipmunks, and birds have always caught her eye. Her granddam, dam, and half sister all have a lot of hunting and treeing instinct and probably developed this quicker than Quinn as they all work together and influence each other. ESs should be able to differentiate between unwanted vermin and family pets though. They are often fond of their lambs and kids and feel attachment to their stock. Quinn adores anything small and baby (I think her heart would swell with love at the sight of a lamb). The cat mentioned above was feral when we found her and we tamed her only because she and Quinn were so attached to each other. Not only does she bring Quinn her kills but she also brought her her kittens when she had a litter in the barn loft. Quinn loved those kittens - washed them, slept with them, played with them (allowed herself to get crawled all over, pounced on, batted at, and grabbed with sharp little claws) and was obsessed with making sure they were all together and no one was missing at all times. Quinn was more worried, then upset, then mopey than the cat was when the kittens left for their forever homes.

Quinn also melts at the sight of a child, like Trent! This isn't even something that has come with maturity - she's very noticeably had a soft spot for children as young as 2-3 months old. She likes adults but children make her turn into mush and smile. She will actually sneak kisses too, which is unusual for her with adults. She is very gentle, accepting and tolerant of children and always has been. I don't know how many times children have run over to her or popped up and put their arms around her - there is never even ever a moment of surprise or apprehensiveness, she loves it all. A year and a half year old boy once mauled her for a couple of hours - hugging her, kissing her, sticking his hands in her mouth and she never lost patience or got uncomfortable. Just happy to see a kid!

I should note again that Quinn is more stranger friendly than a lot of ESs I've known/heard about. Unless someone is very odd or we don't welcome them she is overjoyed to make friends. She's always been like this though - I remember the breeder saying she took the puppies to her kid's school and all these kids initially came running out at the puppies. The puppies, understandably, froze and sunk back a bit except for Quinn who ran out alone to greet them like "Oh, you're here to see me!!".

I should also note that I am new to the breed, which is incredibly uncommon here (I ADORE this breed though, I am so proud of them and their history!). Quinn's breeder is a small breeder (one breeding bitch at a time and has very few litters) and the only one in the province. The only confirmed ESs I've met have been dogs bred by her, though thanks to email and FB I am able to contact very knowledgeable and experience people within the breed. I linked to her site earlier and will again for anyone interested in the breed - Mary Peaslee is one of these people. She has lots of good articles, pictures and videos stashed all over her site. She writes so well - I've never seen anyone describe my dog better (myself included!). She is a good one to look at too if you're interested in working stock or understanding how they work - not only are her dogs "chore" dogs, but many have titles on all kinds of stock.

Here's her homepage
http://www.englishshepherds.net/

And some good articles
http://www.englishshepherds.net/standard.html
http://www.englishshepherds.net/articles/esare.html
^ I like the "Bossy" point because it's SO Quinn!
http://www.englishshepherds.net/working.html
^ From the above article:

Oh jeez, that was a novel!

One of my dogs is a Kelpie/Cardigan Corgi Mix. He is not what I would call biddable in the since of a border collie. He is very quick to learn, and as long as you can convince him that you really do know what you are talking about he is quick to respond. If he doesn't like what he is hearing though, he just sort of shrugs and does what he thinks is best. I could not tell you how typical that is for a Kelpie, but he is remarkably more independent than my purebred Cardigan (who isn't exactly falling all over himself to do whatever I say).

He is one of my favorite dogs I have ever owned. Ultimately though, I had to leave him with my parents when I moved out because he isn't happy without at least a 5-6 mile run everyday (and really if you want him to be enjoyable to live with at all it is more like 8). Again, no idea how typical any of this is for the breed since he is a mix, but thought I'd chime in.

I don't have it anymore, otherwise I would. It was very helpful to me. Unfortunately my computer wheezed it's last wheeze a few days ago though, and we have a new one now. So I don't have that document anymore. Which is too bad, as I kind of feel like there is a Koolie craze happening right now and the comparisons I made might put things into slightly better perspective. I pretty well decided a year and a half ago that a Koolie would likely be my next dog, but I still wanted to make comparisons and gather as much info as possible, as there was no point importing a Koolie if I'd be just as happy with a more easily available breed. I just hope this Koolie craze sticks to Chaz and doesn't venture to the rest of the world. I'm starting to feel a little over protective of them, much like I do Tollers, and I don't even have one yet, haha.

Basically what I found is that Koolies seem to be sort of a nice balance between Kelpies and Border Collies. I crossed Aussies off the list for now only because they reminded me too much of what I like about Tollers, and if I'm going to have a dog like that, it's going to be a Toller. And I never looked into English Shepherds too much because, as others have said, they're more of a happy all purpose farm dog and that is not what I was looking for. I want a high energy, high drive, willing to please, intelligent, eager to learn dog that I can get serious about certain sports and games with (Agility, perhaps Flyball, and I'm really hoping for another Frisbee dog). And I don't believe, as nice as they are, that an ES is the best fit for that.

The people I've talked to with Kelpies say that their dogs are biddable, but they can also be rather independent thinkers. They try hard and never give up, but often like to find their own way of doing things. At the same time though, they all said that their Kelpies were the most handler orientated dogs they've ever had. Kelpie people also told me that noise sensitivity can be an issue in the breed (though more common in Kelpie/BC mixes), and that while they are people and animal friendly, reactivity seems to be becoming a bigger thing. There also appeared to be a pretty big show and working split, similar to what you see in Border Collies. They like to have fun, but are rather serious also, which again reminded me of Border Collies. And from what people have told me, they seem to have a tougher, no non-sense attitude but at the same time are rather sensitive.

Border Collies, as much as I love them, I worry too much about reactivity and noise sensitivity. This comes from owning a BC mix (who, while mixed, acted way more BC than Toller) and also from talking to other BC owners and getting to know more in person. They also seem more prone to OCD behaviours and neurotic tendencies than Kelpies or Koolies. And to be honest, I had a really hard time finding nice Border Collie people. They seem a very political breed and a lot of people were downright rude to me when I asked about their dogs. Basically, if I wasn't going to work sheep, I would be a terrible owner. So that kind of turned me off. But really, I was set after finding a breed with all of the qualities I liked about Tango's temperament but also a breed that was not prone to her bad qualities (she was extremely noise phobic and dog reactive). And after having Dance, I was also seeking a breed that had a more minimal chance of being people shy or even too reserved. I'd still like a BC one day, but not right now.

Koolies, from talking to Lindsey and other owners, seem to have all of the qualities I was looking for for the most part. The only thing that I don't really care for is the barking, but whatever. I figure most herding breeds like their voices and that's just something that comes with it. And I do like vocal dogs, just as long as I can control actual barking somewhat. What it came down to basically is that Koolies seem slightly more handler focused and people pleasing than Kelpies, everyone I've spoken to says that they are very people and dog friendly (big plus for me), they are not prone to being overly spooky or sensitive to things as much as BCs or Kelpies can be, etc. And they don't seem quite so serious. They like to work but they appear to make everything into a fun game. And again, I prefer that they're more upright than stalky. It's hard to explain why really, but there is just something that clicks for me when it comes to Koolies that is missing with BCs and Kelpies. Both are breeds I seriously thought about getting before I decided to look into Koolies more, and I love both and would like to have both one day (if I live long enough for all these dogs lol), but Koolies just seem more suited to me right now.

There are plenty of similarities between all of the breeds, but the differences are enough to make me go "this is the breed I want, and while I like these breeds, I don't like this, this or this about it".

I was the last person to ever think I'd ever import a dog from anywhere. Especially sight unseen as far as breeders go. But I just feel strongly that a Koolie is a better fit for me right now, and so I'm jumping in and doing it.

The list I'd made was better, as it kind of pinpointed everything cleanly rather than just my jumbled thoughts above, but hopefully that sort of helps anybody trying to find differences. I wish I knew some Koolies or Kelpies in person to give a better review, but I don't. I have met Kelpies, but don't know them, and obviously Koolies are not very common here so I've never met any. I've met lots of Border Collies and talked to lots of owners. And it's also always different living with a breed, too. You can only find out so much about a breed without living with it I think.

I absolutely won't disagree with that! Quinn loves agility, but she is a higher energy/higher drive ES than a lot. I think she likes it because there's so many different elements and she loves to learn new things and figure things out. There's also so many ways to change things up and make it more challenging or less difficult depending on your goals. However, I've actually joked before about how much she'd dislike something like flyball. First of all the barking dogs would drive her insane, and secondly I can just picture her going "wait, I just did this, what's the point of doing it again?".

Charlotte, Traveler's only saving grace when he finally meets Quinn will be the fact that he has balls. Other than that she will HATE him and he will adore her

Toller, that was a great comparison I think. Very very similar to all the things I've heard and your reasoning is identical to mine. I think I might like a Kelpie in the future but I'm going to be spending a lot of time trying to find the right breeder for me.

SO MUCH THIS

I love this breed, absolutely adore it with all my heart. I don't know if I could find another breed that fits me like they do. But because of that I see most of the things that would be off putting to most people in a positive light.

"Oh, you like to walk on the walls and have no care that that was my face you just perched on? HOW CUTE"

"You are going to scream during agility training the entire time? Silly dog!"

"You think getting in the dashboard will make the car go faster? Well, you can try!"

"You think because I blinked we're going to go DO FUN THINGS?!?! Ohh goofy dog, we'll go do stuff"

And so on. They aren't an easy breed even though their outlook on life can make you think they're more easy going than they are and I really think it takes a certain kind of person to own one, do right by them and not get frustrated or annoyed by their crazy. And crazy they are in an upbeat, anything worth doing should be done at full blast with volume.

I do an incredible amount of training and exercising of him all while constantly enforcing their natural off switch. Overall he's the perfect dog for me, but there is a reason people I meet in person have stopped telling me that they want one :rofl1:

The more I hear about Traveler, the more I think he sounds like my kind of dog.

That is all I have to add here.

He has balls and he's handsome! And from pictures it seems like he likes to run a lot instead of wrestle or anything, which Quinn likes. If she doesn't like Traveler she can hitchhike home, LOL.

I'll offer the flip side of the koolie vs BC thing. I've looked into and thought of both a couple times (first time was 5 years or so ago) and ultimately decided on a BC for me.

The real thing it comes down to for me is that border collies have something about them that makes them so special and unique and amazing in my eyes. Koolies, kelpies, Aussies, English Shepherds, shelties, etc just can't compare to me. It's almost intangible and completely impossible to explain. I think it has something to do with their eyes. I've never seen another breed with such fire and intensity. Something about the breed just speaks to me. Pyr sheps are one breed that I like almost as much as BCs. I will hopefully have one of them too one day.

I think of the breeds, koolies would be the next best fit for me after BCs and pyr sheps. I do think I would like a koolie but... in the end I'd like a BC more and since you'd have to import a koolie, I couldn't justify it for me.

Here are the superficial things I like:
1. I love love love love love the creepy stalky staring behavior. I think it is so cool how much instinctual behavior you can see in BCs. I also think having a dog so quietly intense waiting there is amazing.
2. They come in longhair more often than koolies and I prefer the longhaired look
3. They come in solid colors a lot more often. I greatly prefer tri, black and white, etc to merle.

Thinking about breeders and the likelihood of finding a good breeder for me in the breeds
1. I can't get behind merle x merle breeding and many koolie breeders breed merle to merle. The likelihood of finding someone who doesn't breed merle to merle is slim
2. Health testing seems a lot more common in BCs, even in the working lines
3. You have to import, which is a pain
4. I will not buy a breed of dog without meeting at least one and preferably more. I'd have to be able to go meet some koolies first but that is unlikely to happen. I've met tons of BCs and have a very good feel for them, I think. (As much as possible without actually owning one)

The breeds themselves
1. I like that koolies seem a bit more happy go lucky but I have a problem sometimes with larger very straightforward physical types of dogs. I like dogs that seem to have more of a common sense and space bubble. I can take Mia's lack of space bubble and cimbing on me but not sure how I'd like a dog that is BC sized jumping on my face all the time lol.

2. I greatly prefer a one man dog and a dog that doesn't want to go meet everyone and all dogs. In fact, overly friendly dogs annoy me a lot. Summer is way too friendly and obnoxious. Most BCs I meet aren't nearly as friendly as Summer and that's good.

3. The reactivity and spookiness in BCs doesn't worry me much. Mia was a dog that took quite a bit of time and work as far as socialization and such goes and she's wonderful. I feel like I've already had a practice round with her and her quirks (as well as the shelties) so that BC quirks seem pretty normal to me.

4. One thing I do worry about is that BCs seem more prone to DA from the ones I meet and what I hear about koolies

5. I am kind of excited at the prospect of having a more serious/more focused dog. I do love how funny and spontaneous Mia is but her tendency to just go 'ooh shiny' and lose her brain frustrates me sometimes. A bit more intense of a personality would be good for me and my sanity.

6. I also very much like that BCs seem like they are a bit more handler sensitive and handler oriented dogs. That is my favorite thing about the breeds I've had and something I definitely want in a future dog

7. Barking. Much as I don't really mind barking and loud dogs, I'd prefer a dog that doesn't bark so much. Koolies seem about as loud as Trey

Honestly tollers are about the best fit on paper for me but I just can't get excited about the breed for some reason or another. Right or wrong I tend to put a lot of emphasis into whether or not the breed has that draw for me or if it instinctively feels like the right one.

I 100% agree with the koolie craze going on. I'm getting one because from talking to people that run them in agility, they are exactly what I need as an agility partner. I had a border collie, I loved him to death but there was those breed tendencies that just didn't fit quite well with me. I was looking for a very specific dog to fill a spot and that's why I turned to koolies because I couldn't find it elsewhere (other than in Zuma, so I need to work on that cloning machine). Some of the people that are continuously telling me they want a koolie would actually do just fine with one of the other more common herding breeds from what I learn. I can't see importing a dog, spending all that money and energy on it if there is a perfectly acceptable dog that will fit all of their requirements in the same nation. It just baffles me.

I hope this craze doesn't spread too much, I can't imagine importing a dog and then being stuck with it because it turns out not to be a good fit or too much dog for me to handle. I would have never even contemplated this if I hadn't met Traveler in person. I would've gone out searching for another rescue dog that fits my needs.

A good example for this is pyrsheps. I was head over heels in love with them. Loved all the descriptions I read online, watched every video I could find on youtube. Had my name on a puppy list. And then I met one. He was every bit what was described to me, drivey, in love with his person, fast, bouncy... But totally 100% not the dog for me. What would've happened if I hadn't met one and brought a puppy like that home? I would've been CRUSHED. That poor puppy would've spent a life trying to fit into my expectations and that would not be fair in anyway.

With all that said, I cannot wait for my new "loudmouth" to arrive. I hope she is every bit as crazy as Traveler is and I can't wait to attempt to channel that energy and drive into agility.

Many have mentioned the reason they don't want a Border Collie is the noise sensitivity. So are Traveler/any other Koolies not phased at all by any noises?

I am curious about this part. For the most part, I don't know very many Border Collies with noise sensitivity, but I wonder if that has to do with the type of dogs I'm around? (all working bred BCs) Blaze has about two different sounds he freaks at, and only at home, garage door and bags.

It's always interesting when I hear people say they don't want a Border Collie because of the noise thing. I'm curious how Koolies fair against them in that category.

If there gets to be a breeding program over here and I can meet them and figure out if they'd fit, koolies might get back on the list (assuming I can find a solid colored dog).

That's why I'm going BC right now instead of pyr shep. Not until I can meet a lot of pyr sheps will I be comfortable with it.

I have met a lot of BCs of varying types so feel a lot more at home with that breed decision.

I've seen several noise phobic BC's.... but lets be honest, it really is easy to desensitize puppies to noise with a little work. Storm phobias are a bit different as you can't control or predict that, however I do believe with enough socialization and noise desensitization as puppies it greatly reduces the chance of having a storm phobic dog. I really don't see that as a reason to turn away from a breed personally.

I agree with almost all of this, and will likely be getting a BC myself for mostly similar reasons...and also because I know a couple BC people I trust to help me find the kind of dog I'm looking for.

One disagreement:
"I greatly prefer a one man dog and a dog that doesn't want to go meet everyone and all dogs. In fact, overly friendly dogs annoy me a lot. Summer is way too friendly and obnoxious. Most BCs I meet aren't nearly as friendly as Summer and that's good."

I agree that most BCs I know aren't really social butterflies who want to go love on the world. However I wouldn't say most BCs I know are one-man dogs. They are work-centric dogs. They in general don't really give a d*** who's giving the instructors so long as they know which instructions they are to follow and that the person isn't a blooming idiot. And if the handler messes up they are more than happy to yell at them (lol)

You see this a lot in agility. The dogs love the sport and quite often don't really care who is running them so long as they are running (in their mind: working) and the handler of the day understands their cue system and gives instructions several obstacles in advance. Herding, same way. Their person is their preferred human in life but most importantly the person who most often gives them a chance to work...if someone else offers work they will leave their owner in a flash without looking back til the job is done. And ensuring their isn't any chance for more work at that moment.

Now the jittery ones tend to be more handler-exclusive but that's often more because they are leaning on their person for a support system because they don't have the stability of personality to function on their own.