Sunflower Cluster pictures - dobes, collies, GSDs, and more

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by Saeleofu

Yes, definitely. He moved funny, too (well, to me...I'm not used to GSDs built like that).

I definitely like the structure of my trainer's GSD better. She's from German working lines. She should be at the UKC show with me in a few weeks, I'll try to get pictures.

I'm not saying they don't move funny I think people see them and assume they have something wrong with them like HD or something and that isn't the case.

If I were to get another GSD, it would be from German working lines. My German showline girl was nearly perfect though. And there were things I liked about my Amlines, although they weren't really what I'd call ideal for what I want in the breed and both were loved pets. Actually, if I could have combined the best of the two Amline dogs that I had into one healthy dog, that would have been a pretty nice GSD. I think that I'd be most likely to find what I want in German working lines though, both in structure and temperament. I also know someone who breeds really outstanding ones

[Upendi&Mina]

Originally Posted by Aleron

The first GSD is definitely a more "extreme" dog, it is not how he is stacked. The difference is not in the "sloping" of the back but the length and set of the rear legs. His stretched rear leg is pretty far from his body. If you were to drop an imaginary line from his tailbone straight to the floor, his rear foot would not be anywhere close to that line. And he is not overstretched because his hock is still perpendicular to the ground and his foot is not stretched beyond it. This dog is "overstretched: - you can see his hock is not perpendicular to the ground and his foot is set beyond it: http://germanshepherdbreeder.ws/user_images/9871698.jpg

All of the GSDs pictured are fairly typical for Amline dogs really. Most people think of only the most extreme of extreme dogs when they think of Amline GSDs but the truth is, there's quite a lot of variety in the lines. When I took my Amline girl to the SchH club, they couldn't believe she was all Amlines and guessed she was an Amline/German Working line cross because of how she was put together and her general look. Having lived with a more extreme Amline dog as well, I can tell you there's not really any reason to "cringe" when you see them. It isn't the most functional build for sure but they are not in pain due to it. My boy ran around daycare every day with the other dogs, did agility and went swimming and hiking like any normal dog. His structure limited his speed, his ability to turn corners sharply and his jumping style but it didn't cause him pain or limit his life. Of course, our dwarf dog does all of those thing too and he is limited by his structure in some ways as well. The difference being of course, that his structure is more or less correct for the breed he is but the GSD's was really not, except by modern show standards.

The bolded part SO MUCH, I spent almost a week traveling with my friend and helping her with her *gasp* Amline GSDs at a show and frankly they got around completely fine. They were in no way crippled or in pain as people seem to think, and played as long and hard as any 8 month old puppies I know. It's also important to remember that when not stacked their backs do not have such an extreme slope, the way they are stacked drops their rears quite a bit.

I also find it interesting that everyone rags on GSDs and their slopes when I saw some Irish Setters this weekend who had a pretty extreme slope when stacked (I would argue that some of these dogs might rival GSDs in how far their rears dropped if stacked in the same manner), yet I don't really hear people calling them crippled. Are some GSDs very extreme? Yes, but their are breeders taking things to extremes in EVERY BREED, so this is not solely a German Shepherd problem and frankly there are some breeds who I am much more concerned about healthwise.

Just my two cents of course.

[Whisper]

Originally Posted by Aleron

All of the GSDs pictured are fairly typical for Amline dogs really. Most people think of only the most extreme of extreme dogs when they think of Amline GSDs but the truth is, there's quite a lot of variety in the lines. When I took my Amline girl to the SchH club, they couldn't believe she was all Amlines and guessed she was an Amline/German Working line cross because of how she was put together and her general look. Having lived with a more extreme Amline dog as well, I can tell you there's not really any reason to "cringe" when you see them. It isn't the most functional build for sure but they are not in pain due to it. My boy ran around daycare every day with the other dogs, did agility and went swimming and hiking like any normal dog. His structure limited his speed, his ability to turn corners sharply and his jumping style but it didn't cause him pain or limit his life. Of course, our dwarf dog does all of those thing too and he is limited by his structure in some ways as well. The difference being of course, that his structure is more or less correct for the breed he is but the GSD's was really not, except by modern show standards.

I'm glad you have had good experiences with American show line GSDs. I have not. I've only known a handful, but every single one of them looked like they moved with difficulty, and some outright limped. I've also known several dogs from various working lines and show/working crosses, and of course while being from a certain country or group doesn't guarantee quality, they were all fit dogs with no limitations in moving swiftly and efficiently.
I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I do reserve the right to "cringe" at any dog I do not think is a good examples of what the breed should be (a versatile, physically capable working dog).
"The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs. This must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce working dogs." I see that happening in the AKC ring. Many breed for conformation only, not any kind of working ability. Fortunately not all.

Upendi&Mina, I do agree with you about setters. I've seen some horrid toplines in different breeds. With GSDs I think it's exaggerated because of their stack.