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  #11  
Old 04-05-2012, 08:53 PM
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Its really getting scary....
Yep.

15 Trillion in debt and growing. Utter fiscal insanity. Doubling down on Bush's nightmare. "Hope and Change" LOL

An executive who thinks judical review is wrong. The President of the United States outright defying the checks and balances. Cato and Cicero warned us. Caesar won.

Fundamental misunderstandings about what a Republic is. Rome was a Republic and this one will fail for the same reasons. The tryanny of the mob.

Etc.


Yeah, this law is crazy. (I'd like to read more about it from a less biased source....) But we are still, supposedly, a Republic. How sad so few know what that means. (Read: the "99%")
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  #12  
Old 04-05-2012, 09:07 PM
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Ok the whole pregnant during your period thing is crazy but are they serious? 20 week abortions are an attack on womens rights?

WTF? Am I the only one that finds THAT nuts? Where does one draw the line?
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  #13  
Old 04-05-2012, 09:12 PM
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They are an attack on womens rights because they are very rare already and USUALLY done for medical reason. If I were really sick and needed to either delay treatment and possibly die or abort, I would abort. I have two children that deserve to have their mother. NOT an easy choice, but the woman's alone to make.
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:21 PM
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If for medical reasons OK but I think there needs to be Some sort of rule to make sure its only if medically nessecary. I don't think just anyone should be able to walk in and have a late abortion
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  #15  
Old 04-05-2012, 09:27 PM
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If for medical reasons OK but I think there needs to be Some sort of rule to make sure its only if medically nessecary. I don't think just anyone should be able to walk in and have a late abortion
The problem is then who gets to decide? THere was a law in Utah that they tried to pass, abortions only if medically necessary. One of the OBGYNs they interviewed was asked, if a newly pregnant women who was diagnosed with Cancer would be approved by him for an abortion to start radiation and chemo. He said no, treatment could just start after the baby was born. 9 months is a LONG time to delay cancer treatment!

Then, think of all the appeals and trials it could take....many abortions that were close to or just at the "cut off" would be delayed even further.

Mainly though, I think it should be the woman carryings choice alone.
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:47 PM
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Yeah I don't know.... 20 weeks is young but not unheard of for survival and shortly after that its a decent rate of survival so ...

I really can't jump on board of the "anyone can get an abortion at 20 weeks" even if it is rare.

Is the only reason because "science hasn't proven they can feel pain".

Should we be able to abort at 28 weeks? 32 weeks? Whenever the wOman feels like it?

I think there is a line to be drawn when its not jus whatever the woman feels like doing

At 20 weeks its more than "just a mass of cells".

This is coming from someone who had a late termination (not quite 20 weeks but late enough) because I was very sick and the baby was dying within me. Even though the baby would not have made it much longer i still struggle with that. I actually don't have an issue with mandatory ultrasounds before abortion either. It is (or was) one of the conditions in canada too.
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  #17  
Old 04-05-2012, 10:07 PM
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I was NOT trying to start a political debate here . . . or an abortion one.

I was remarking on the willingness of certain people to abandon reality for political/ideological reasons. I understand exactly what they are trying to do . . . they can't tamper with the 20 week line, but they CAN define gestational age . . . and they are using that to move it back two weeks so that abortion before 18 weeks is prohibited. Legally, its actually pretty clever . . . however, its positively surreal in its implications. Arizona's done a lot of surreal things recently.

As for a neutral source, here's the bill. I actually found the whole thing on a comedy site and simply traced back to something that could be called an article to confirm that it wasn't an April Fools. But here's the actual bill if you want to read it.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/50leg/2.../s.2036jud.pdf

The relevant language is on page 8.

As for the President ignoring the Supreme Court; we'll see. He definitely spoke out of line and what he said was incorrect. But whether he'll ignore the Court's resulting order remains unknown and he has not said he would do so. More important, its not whether he'll ignore it, but whether everyone else does . . . not only the President, but a huge chunk of the executive branch will have to openly defy the Supreme Court. It could happen, but I think its unlikely. The Bush Administration ignored Supreme Court orders, but did they did so under the cover of "national security." Obama does not have that cover, nor is he likely to get that level of cooperation.

So, right now, he's talking out of his behind, and its an election year, so I'm going to ignore it, just like I ignore the ranting and raving from the right when the Supreme Court knocks down their pet laws or makes findings they don't like . . . and there was definitely a phase where the right was arguing that judicial review was not originally part of the Constitution, which, in fact, arguably, it was not. It's a dang good idea, but it really didn't come into clear existence until Marbury v. Madison was decided, almost 20 years later. And there was a phase in which the right wing was very fond of telling us that . . . because the Court wasn't doing what they wanted.

Everyone thinks the Court is being "activist" and is out of line, and is doing something "unprecedented" when it does something they don't like. I believe that is actually the Court's job . . . to **** everyone off (joking).
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  #18  
Old 04-05-2012, 11:43 PM
Psyfalcon Psyfalcon is online now
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I took the view that the President wasn't speaking out of line, but saying that the court has had an EXTREMELY broad interpretation of the commerce clause, so why should they decide to start restricting it now?

The mob is the one refusing to pay taxes to fund the republic the mandate was a Republican idea in the 90s, now its "socialism." Even if you take the view that the government should only do what private industry can't do, the government should be in health care because private industry isn't doing so well. If we had modern medicine in 1787 rather than blood letting, I really hope that health care would have been one of those inalienable rights.

Where is the constitutional outrage over the separation of church and state? I do consider all the anti abortion things as pro church. The state can decide that certain deaths are OK. We're OK executing criminals. We're OK using tax money to kill around the world. We're not OK with people using their own money for their own abortions?

Where is the outrage over the Supreme Court deciding that a jail can strip search someone for any minor infraction that brings them to jail (5-4 split...) and that due to a prior decision the person searched had no recourse over the government who had an invalid arrest warrant?

For the first time ever we fought TWO wars without raising a single cent of extra taxes to pay for them. While cutting taxes on the massively wealthy? Suddenly all the fiscal conservatives wake up when a Democrat is in office? Bullshit. Now they're wringing their hands and whining that 50% don't pay taxes! Except they do.

Sales Tax.
Property Tax.
Gas Tax.

Yes, the country is going to hell, and we're too dumb to notice. And we won't notice until there is a decent educational system, but no one wants to pay the taxes for that! A republic can't stand with a populace who can't understand the issues, and some of those issues are getting more complex as the world shrinks. Yet we still have presidential candidates calling the President a snob for advocating education?
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  #19  
Old 04-06-2012, 12:42 AM
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I actually don't have an issue with mandatory ultrasounds before abortion either. It is (or was) one of the conditions in canada too.
"Regular" ultrasounds, where they rub the jelly on your belly and use that tool, that's one thing.

Shoving something larger than most vibrators up your vag and jerking it around for a poorer quality US than the belly version is something else entirely. That's just plain mean and spiteful.
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  #20  
Old 04-06-2012, 06:41 AM
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I took the view that the President wasn't speaking out of line, but saying that the court has had an EXTREMELY broad interpretation of the commerce clause, so why should they decide to start restricting it now?
Could it be because forcing citizens to purchase a consumer product radically changes the relationship between the government and the people?

Where does that stop? (Where does it EVER stop?) If they can force us to buy health care, what else can they force us to buy?

Quote:
The mob is the one refusing to pay taxes to fund the republic the mandate was a Republican idea in the 90s, now its "socialism." Even if you take the view that the government should only do what private industry can't do, the government should be in health care because private industry isn't doing so well. If we had modern medicine in 1787 rather than blood letting, I really hope that health care would have been one of those inalienable rights.
So that is the standard? If private industy "isn't doing so well", the government should be able to just take over whatever that thing is? "Isn't doing so well", by whose standards?

I am not arguing that the current state of health care delivery is great here now. But fedzilla won't make it any better. TSA anyone?

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Where is the constitutional outrage over the separation of church and state?
Find this in the Constitution for me please.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

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For the first time ever we fought TWO wars without raising a single cent of extra taxes to pay for them. While cutting taxes on the massively wealthy? Suddenly all the fiscal conservatives wake up when a Democrat is in office? Bullshit.
Agree with you here. There are VERY few true fiscal conservatives in our government.

Quote:
Now they're wringing their hands and whining that 50% don't pay taxes! Except they do.

Sales Tax.
Property Tax.
Gas Tax.
Except that excluding a portion of the gas tax, those are all state levies. My beef is with fedzilla.

Except that the 50% who pay no income tax ALSO usually get a federal tax REFUND. Nope, that is not buying votes or anything.

Now, the idea of making all federal taxes consumption based is something I can get behind. But that will never happen. That would mean the government loses its biggest weapon of all against us, the tax code.

Quote:
Yes, the country is going to hell, and we're too dumb to notice. And we won't notice until there is a decent educational system, but no one wants to pay the taxes for that! A republic can't stand with a populace who can't understand the issues, and some of those issues are getting more complex as the world shrinks. Yet we still have presidential candidates calling the President a snob for advocating education?
So the education system sucks because of a lack of funding? How much have we spent since the DoE was founded? What's the return on investment with that? Not so good.

Top down, massive, 'one size fits all' solutions simply cannot work in a free republic.

Sorry for the hijack. I'm done.
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