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  #41  
Old 03-30-2012, 08:26 PM
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It doesn't matter whether some people reeeeeeelly need help or this program should not be cut or this other thing should be paid for. You can go on and on till the cows come home about who deserves what. The fact of the matter is, that our countries have run out of money. If you used your credit card and kept buying things that you can't pay for and you owed hundreds of thousands of dollars and then you kept on using your credit card and you asked your parents to help you out and they spent every last dime they had helping you out but you kept on buying things on credit. What would happen? Where would you get the money to pay the credit card with? Do you think the credit card company would just let it go and let you keep on spending money? Well, apparently the people in this kind of system, those who vote for politicians who are all about social help think it will all work out fine. The parents will keep paying for them. Who are the "parents?" The rich. Oh yes, let's just make the rich pay. But guess what? Rich people run out of money too, just like the parents in this little story. And just like the government. If you keep taking from some source....any source, it runs dry eventually. Then what do you think will happen? A complete and colassal collapse. And that's what we're doing right now. Imploding, you might call it. People need to stop whining about not having their health care paid for by someone else or anything else from the government. Whether it's right or wrong, whether you believe in government doing a lot of stuff for people, whether it's done "correctly" or not, it doesn't matter. We're out of money. There isn't anymore. We're in debt up to our eyeballs. There's no one left to pay for it.
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  #42  
Old 03-30-2012, 08:30 PM
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So what's the solution then? I don't disagree about the imminent collapse...just that someone offering solutions is being seen as 'whining'. All we can really do is propose options, no?
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  #43  
Old 03-30-2012, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by misfitz View Post
You're assuming that these people want "luxuries" and already live in a large house. If they started out with nothing, and are barely scraping by in the first place, the choice between taking a part-time, minimum wage job that doesn't pay the rent on your tiny apartment, or staying on the system and being able to buy food...?

I think NicoleJ has a valid point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think she's saying that helping people off of the system is the ONLY solution. Only that it's a part of the solution. It's like the animal shelter crowding problem - we can't solve it ONLY by spay/neuter, or ONLY by adopting. But many solutions working together to solve a complex problem with many facets and many causes.

And you can't realistically compare your experience in your town with someone else's experience in a different town/state/country in a different time period. Any more than I, in Los Angeles, can complain that people in Detroit just aren't looking hard enough for jobs. Sometimes jobs just DON'T exist - or not enough of them.

My family lived in the Silicon Valley during the dot-com crash. My brother, who was in high school, and his friends couldn't find any part-time jobs. Not even at McDonalds - all of those jobs were filled by out of work software engineers. Believe me, they looked, but the unemployment rate at that time was astronomical. And there were far more out of work engineers than there were cashier jobs at McDonalds. The highways at rush hour looked like post-apocalyptic - no cars at all.

My dad was lucky enough to have a network of friends who helped him get another job - at a 50% pay cut. Fine, you do what you have to. They ended up having to leave the Bay Area. Again, you do what you have to. But they were LUCKY. They had a house they could sell (albeit at a loss.) They had enough savings to enable them to live in the red for years, they had supportive friends and family, and they didn't have any medical or other emergencies.

Had they not had these things, who knows what would have happened. Someone living paycheck to paycheck at that time would have been devastated. If you're already near the bottom and something like that happens, it's not so easy to recover.

Ok, I'm done ranting. Anyone read Nickel & Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich? A journalist tried an experiment, starting with nothing to see where she could get with the proverbial hard work in several US cities. It's a pretty eye-opening book.
You got exactly what I am saying. Thanks. THat does sound like and interesting read/
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  #44  
Old 03-30-2012, 08:46 PM
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And DoberLuv, I'm not saying there's not a problem...I just get irritated when people that are struggling are painted with the brush of "wanting luxuries" or "living above their means" and that's what got them into trouble. And you didn't do that, but some of what LauraLeigh said rubbed me the wrong way. (No offense, LauraLeigh.)

I also get mad at magazine "save hundreds of dollars this year!" articles that tell me I should stop buying my daily latte at Starbucks and I'll save $xx.xx. Ohhh, so that's why I'm so broke. Well, I'll just stop buying those lattes and new cars and steak dinners and I'll be fine. <facepalm> Sometimes it's not that simple.
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  #45  
Old 03-30-2012, 08:57 PM
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First, I'm not saying that offering solutions is whining. And it's neither here nor there whether people are struggling or others are wanting luxuries. It has no bearing on our state of economic collapse. It's really very simple. We don't have money to pay for these things whether they're deserved or not. It's all gone. There is no solution at this late stage of the game. We're way too far into debt and there isn't anyone to pay for it. It's going to go down like the Roman empire did. It's only a matter of a little time.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #46  
Old 03-30-2012, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by misfitz View Post
You're assuming that these people want "luxuries" and already live in a large house. If they started out with nothing, and are barely scraping by in the first place, the choice between taking a part-time, minimum wage job that doesn't pay the rent on your tiny apartment, or staying on the system and being able to buy food...?

I think NicoleJ has a valid point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think she's saying that helping people off of the system is the ONLY solution. Only that it's a part of the solution. It's like the animal shelter crowding problem - we can't solve it ONLY by spay/neuter, or ONLY by adopting. But many solutions working together to solve a complex problem with many facets and many causes.

And you can't realistically compare your experience in your town with someone else's experience in a different town/state/country in a different time period. Any more than I, in Los Angeles, can complain that people in Detroit just aren't looking hard enough for jobs. Sometimes jobs just DON'T exist - or not enough of them.

My family lived in the Silicon Valley during the dot-com crash. My brother, who was in high school, and his friends couldn't find any part-time jobs. Not even at McDonalds - all of those jobs were filled by out of work software engineers. Believe me, they looked, but the unemployment rate at that time was astronomical. And there were far more out of work engineers than there were cashier jobs at McDonalds. The highways at rush hour looked like post-apocalyptic - no cars at all.

My dad was lucky enough to have a network of friends who helped him get another job - at a 50% pay cut. Fine, you do what you have to. They ended up having to leave the Bay Area. Again, you do what you have to. But they were LUCKY. They had a house they could sell (albeit at a loss.) They had enough savings to enable them to live in the red for years, they had supportive friends and family, and they didn't have any medical or other emergencies.

Had they not had these things, who knows what would have happened. Someone living paycheck to paycheck at that time would have been devastated. If you're already near the bottom and something like that happens, it's not so easy to recover.

Ok, I'm done ranting. Anyone read Nickel & Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich? A journalist tried an experiment, starting with nothing to see where she could get with the proverbial hard work in several US cities. It's a pretty eye-opening book.
I live in the same province as Nicole now, I see the housing provided in our county and know the amount that a very close friends sister gets monthly, it's much higher than my daughter's husbands monthly income as a tradesman with a good job...

I know many people making it on their own, struggling but on their own, both here in Ontario and back home in NS, right now... Not back when we were (which was not thaaat long ago)

I know VERY few on welfare around here who live in tiny houses, no food etc... Unless they misuse their funds...

I know MANY in nice supplemented apartments or duplexes, with Internet, satellite, and far more luxuries than many peers who work...

I find it frustrating and offensive, can't help it...

I feel terrible for those who need the system, but that does not negate that many are set up better here than those who work their asses off..

I cannot compare to the US system, or other provinces because I don't know about them, but I do know that Matt makes $20 an hour, and works 40 plus hours a week, and the sister I spoke of clears more per month than he does... And gets supplemented housing, dental and medical benefits and access to sport programs for their children for "free"

I remember at a time when a friend in NS few years back was struggling and they were behind on their power bill, they had a notice hung on their door saying they had 24 hours to pay, under that it said if you are on social assistance you can get a 7 day extension... So if you work cough it up, if you are on welfare just call and you can have 7 days!!?! See anything wrong with that?

VERY broken system with little "incentive" to get off maybe, except pride of doing it for yourself... And most CAN! For those who truly can't that's what the system IS for!

Sorry, as you can tell it is an issue for me... I don't want to seem mean, I am simply frustrated.... The fact some need it should not mean we ignore the millions that goes to those who truly don't

Oh and to address the bottom issue,

Our first home was a mobile home, when The kids were 1/2 it burned flat...

We were already poor, we could not afford insurance, we literally had the clothes on our backs and our old clunker car... We had some old furniture donated, found a cheap apartment, dug in and dug out....

I know you said not to use my experiences but it does not get much rougher than that and we managed..
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  #47  
Old 03-30-2012, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misfitz View Post
And DoberLuv, I'm not saying there's not a problem...I just get irritated when people that are struggling are painted with the brush of "wanting luxuries" or "living above their means" and that's what got them into trouble. And you didn't do that, but some of what LauraLeigh said rubbed me the wrong way. (No offense, LauraLeigh.)

I also get mad at magazine "save hundreds of dollars this year!" articles that tell me I should stop buying my daily latte at Starbucks and I'll save $xx.xx. Ohhh, so that's why I'm so broke. Well, I'll just stop buying those lattes and new cars and steak dinners and I'll be fine. <facepalm> Sometimes it's not that simple.
Trust me I know struggle, more than 99% of the people here on welfare, sorry I rubbed you wrong but that's been my experience and I can't and won't ignore it...

Maybe in other places social programs pay less, here they "pay" quite well...

And I am not talking about disability, I am talking about able bodied people with a couple of kids making more per month when all their cheques come in than my daughters husband who makes a good wage!
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  #48  
Old 03-30-2012, 09:29 PM
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I am not in Ontario. I am in Alberta. Or did you move here recently? Because your location says Ontario. It should anger people when someone is using the system in the wrong way. No one is saying it shouldn't. We are just saying that there is other aspects to look at as well other then just get the leeches off. I prefer to find ways to assist people to get off of it then to stay stuck on it. The sooner someone is off it the better for everyone.
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  #49  
Old 03-30-2012, 09:30 PM
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I see where you're coming from, and that would annoy me too! The system should reward people that are trying to pull themselves up, that are working and want to work. I think we all agree on that. I don't know anyone on welfare personally, but I am envious of the *very* nice low-income apartments we have around here, that are nicer than what I can afford on my salary.

I used to work for a Worker's Comp lawyer, and it was so sad, that the people who were scamming the system not only got away with it, but they made it that much harder for people with legitimate cases to get compensated. It is rather upside down.
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  #50  
Old 03-30-2012, 09:35 PM
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I am not in Ontario. I am in Alberta. Or did you move here recently? Because your location says Ontario. It should anger people when someone is using the system in the wrong way. No one is saying it shouldn't. We are just saying that there is other aspects to look at as well other then just get the leeches off. I prefer to find ways to assist people to get off of it then to stay stuck on it. The sooner someone is off it the better for everyone.
My bad I though once you said Ontario... I'll give you that, but Alberta is in pretty good shape no? Is it that hard for able bodied people to get work there?
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