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  #31  
Old 03-30-2012, 04:01 PM
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I agree, like the people who are on it and then import expensive breeds of dogs from Europe.

Nice jab but I am not on SS. I am on Assured Income for the Severly Handicap or AISH. There is a huge difference. One is a leg up. The other is there for people who are severly handicapped and can not work. I am disabled by my medical team decisions on my medical issues.

And just to add I am not paying for the pup from my AISH. That covers rent. Doug is paying for her from his wages that he works for.
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  #32  
Old 03-30-2012, 04:10 PM
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Nice jab but I am not on SS. I am on Assured Income for the Severly Handicap or AISH. There is a huge difference. One is a leg up. The other is there for people who are severly handicapped and can not work. I am disabled by my medical team decisions on my medical issues.

And just to add I am not paying for the pup from my AISH. That covers rent. Doug is paying for her from his wages that he works for.
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  #33  
Old 03-30-2012, 04:22 PM
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Yes. Me fail English? That's unpossible. LOL
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I do not believe VERY strongly in absolute minimal government intrusion (some call it "help") into ours lives because I am mean and want people to suffer. Quite the opposite is true.
Well, you could have meant that you do not believe in absolute minimal gov intrusion or "help." You believe in NO gov. intrusion. Or... you do not believe in minimal. You believe in maximal. That word, "absolute" has to be taken into account too. lol.
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  #34  
Old 03-30-2012, 05:10 PM
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Well, you could have meant that you do not believe in absolute minimal gov intrusion or "help." You believe in NO gov. intrusion. Or... you do not believe in minimal. You believe in maximal. That word, "absolute" has to be taken into account too. lol.
Look, I know I suck at written communication. It gets worse when I am writing a firewall policy AND engaging in a discussion on Chaz. LOL

In summary... I want the government, at every level, to be involved our lives as little as possible. Why? Because they suck at pretty much everything they do. Top down, one size fits all solutions to problems do not jive with a society that is supposed to value the liberty of its citizens.
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  #35  
Old 03-30-2012, 05:26 PM
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I am torn on paying to teach trades, too many horrible stories of people in school just to take up space (EI is famous for this, extend benefits if you go to school)

Jeff put himself through trade school while supporting a family, it can be done... It takes an incredible amount of sacrifice but it canbe done..
There will always be those who will find some way around any type of solution they put in so I prefer to look at solutions for those who really need it and want help. For me the reason why I like school or teaching a new trade while they are on benifits is for many I know it would give them more of an option for finding work. And I know it can be done but many need help to be able to do it.

THe way I look at it is this. If someone was selling houses when the recession hit and they lost there jobs and there is little hope in going back into that, yet say they love to work on electronics, or cars, or other such trades where there are some jobs then that means that person is not only given a better chance with that education in getting another job but it also gives them a second option if things fall apart for finding work which means it is that much less likely they will end up on it agian along with getting off of it sooner. THe more options a person has the better.
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  #36  
Old 03-30-2012, 05:29 PM
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Oh, I don't think you suck at communication at all. That's why I love to leave these kinds of threads up to you. lol. I knew exactly what you meant.

The government totally sucks at whatever they do and why people keep thinking over and over again that somehow, they will handle this new program or that new regulation any better is beyond comprehension. Why do people keep entrusting the politicians to take care of us? They have ruined our economy and everything else they touch.
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

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  #37  
Old 03-30-2012, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by NicoleLJ View Post
There will always be those who will find some way around any type of solution they put in so I prefer to look at solutions for those who really need it and want help. For me the reason why I like school or teaching a new trade while they are on benifits is for many I know it would give them more of an option for finding work. And I know it can be done but many need help to be able to do it.

THe way I look at it is this. If someone was selling houses when the recession hit and they lost there jobs and there is little hope in going back into that, yet say they love to work on electronics, or cars, or other such trades where there are some jobs then that means that person is not only given a better chance with that education in getting another job but it also gives them a second option if things fall apart for finding work which means it is that much less likely they will end up on it agian along with getting off of it sooner. THe more options a person has the better.
But here's the thing... Money doesn't grow on trees

yes it would be nice if we could just look into solutions for those who truly need it but the reality is part of that solution needs to be getting the leaches off the system. We can't keep hemorrhaging money and expect to keep giving people on the system more and more and more without cutting some of it somewhere. Cutting some of the social systems is nessecary instead of just adding MORE social services.

The more options people have the better is true but where is the money for that going to come from? Tax those that do have jobs more and more and more until they too need these services?

and i don't understand the idea that we should just forget about those screwing the system and instead focus on people that really need the help. If it weren't for the people sucking the system dry the people that really needed the help could GET it.
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  #38  
Old 03-30-2012, 06:19 PM
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But here's the thing... Money doesn't grow on trees

yes it would be nice if we could just look into solutions for those who truly need it but the reality is part of that solution needs to be getting the leaches off the system. We can't keep hemorrhaging money and expect to keep giving people on the system more and more and more without cutting some of it somewhere. Cutting some of the social systems is nessecary instead of just adding MORE social services.

The more options people have the better is true but where is the money for that going to come from? Tax those that do have jobs more and more and more until they too need these services?

and i don't understand the idea that we should just forget about those screwing the system and instead focus on people that really need the help. If it weren't for the people sucking the system dry the people that really needed the help could GET it.
I never said to stop trying to stop the leeches, I just said I prefer to focus on helping people to get off it sooner which saves money in every way. If someone is on it for a year because they cant get a job, yet someone else that had these options is off in 3 months, then then one off sooner actually saved money then for the system because they were on it for less time. And yes I know that money doesn't grow on trees. But the system now doesn't work. It makes it very hard to get off it. The sooner people are off the better this just is one option to try and get people off sooner.
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  #39  
Old 03-30-2012, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by NicoleLJ View Post
I never said to stop trying to stop the leeches, I just said I prefer to focus on helping people to get off it sooner which saves money in every way. If someone is on it for a year because they cant get a job, yet someone else that had these options is off in 3 months, then then one off sooner actually saved money then for the system because they were on it for less time. And yes I know that money doesn't grow on trees. But the system now doesn't work. It makes it very hard to get off it. The sooner people are off the better this just is one option to try and get people off sooner.
Sorry I don't buy that the system makes it that much harder...

If you want off bad enough you (General You) can get off... I come from a very repressed area, where we lost almost all of our major industries within 2 years... Many of us faced job losses and cuts, yet most of us found a way to survive without welfare..

Sure if you look at straight dollars it's "hard" to get off, because you may make less money, have to move, have to live in a teeny house with no luxuries...

But those are choices, choices to stay on the system rather than do everything you can to get off.... Choices to not accept work that does not meet your criteria rather than work at menial jobs, multiple if necessary until a better comes along... And if you give it your all, work hard and keep pounding the pavement that better job will come along and someone will notice your effort!

Even during the toughest times work is out there, you have to look harder and work harder but jobs exsist, and employers will notice you if you prove your drive and desire....

I am shocked still at the amount of staff we go through at the shop to get one decent hard working employee.. And we pay quite decent for the area!
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  #40  
Old 03-30-2012, 08:25 PM
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If you want off bad enough you (General You) can get off... I come from a very repressed area, where we lost almost all of our major industries within 2 years... Many of us faced job losses and cuts, yet most of us found a way to survive without welfare..

Sure if you look at straight dollars it's "hard" to get off, because you may make less money, have to move, have to live in a teeny house with no luxuries...

But those are choices, choices to stay on the system rather than do everything you can to get off.... Choices to not accept work that does not meet your criteria rather than work at menial jobs, multiple if necessary until a better comes along... And if you give it your all, work hard and keep pounding the pavement that better job will come along and someone will notice your effort
You're assuming that these people want "luxuries" and already live in a large house. If they started out with nothing, and are barely scraping by in the first place, the choice between taking a part-time, minimum wage job that doesn't pay the rent on your tiny apartment, or staying on the system and being able to buy food...?

I think NicoleJ has a valid point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think she's saying that helping people off of the system is the ONLY solution. Only that it's a part of the solution. It's like the animal shelter crowding problem - we can't solve it ONLY by spay/neuter, or ONLY by adopting. But many solutions working together to solve a complex problem with many facets and many causes.

And you can't realistically compare your experience in your town with someone else's experience in a different town/state/country in a different time period. Any more than I, in Los Angeles, can complain that people in Detroit just aren't looking hard enough for jobs. Sometimes jobs just DON'T exist - or not enough of them.

My family lived in the Silicon Valley during the dot-com crash. My brother, who was in high school, and his friends couldn't find any part-time jobs. Not even at McDonalds - all of those jobs were filled by out of work software engineers. Believe me, they looked, but the unemployment rate at that time was astronomical. And there were far more out of work engineers than there were cashier jobs at McDonalds. The highways at rush hour looked like post-apocalyptic - no cars at all.

My dad was lucky enough to have a network of friends who helped him get another job - at a 50% pay cut. Fine, you do what you have to. They ended up having to leave the Bay Area. Again, you do what you have to. But they were LUCKY. They had a house they could sell (albeit at a loss.) They had enough savings to enable them to live in the red for years, they had supportive friends and family, and they didn't have any medical or other emergencies.

Had they not had these things, who knows what would have happened. Someone living paycheck to paycheck at that time would have been devastated. If you're already near the bottom and something like that happens, it's not so easy to recover.

Ok, I'm done ranting. Anyone read Nickel & Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich? A journalist tried an experiment, starting with nothing to see where she could get with the proverbial hard work in several US cities. It's a pretty eye-opening book.
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