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  #31  
Old 03-29-2012, 01:57 PM
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Thanks so much for your input, guys! Even those who disagree, all of your posts have merit and I really appreciate it.
And release the hounds, you have a very good point about vet clinics. Who knows how many contagious dogs have walked the same path my puppy is walking? How many sick dogs have left behind traces of illness on the floor or examination table?
It's so hard because both socialization and initial vaccinations are important and even a place as innocent as a vet's office can be festering disease within its walls.
When Fern got parvo I refreshed my mind as to everything I could about it, and I did find that a lot of vaccinated pups got it. TBH though I would still feel much better after another booster.
I always did lean more towards socialization as a bit more of a priority, but losing a puppy to parvo has made me paranoid. To clarify, though, she never came to my house. She was PTS the day I was planning to bring her home. I did touch her, though, so even though I sanitized my hands before I touched any other animal, and my dogs are showing no signs of being "off" in any way, I am going to ask for tests for both of them.
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Old 03-29-2012, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
why do people have such a fear of walking their puppy in a park before it's had 15 shots, but have no problem walking them into a vet clinic to get those shots?

I take puppies everywhere. Not dogs parks, but then I never go to those. city parks, hardware stores, down the streets, everywhere I can think of. and I don't worry about it.
Good post. We encourage two sets per the Avma at my work.
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  #33  
Old 03-29-2012, 03:10 PM
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This, on the next post may explain the importance of socialization better than I could and why it is not an opinion, but a fact of behavioral science that the consequences of an unsocialized dog (or any animal) are not pretty. This window of time, which varies between species, is a built-in safe guard of nature for ALL animals to learn very early on what is safe and what is dangerous and how to respond to stimuli which may be dangerous and that which is not dangerous.

If this early window of socialization, in dogs...from birth to about 16 weeks weren't vitally important, then you'd have wild animals coming right up to you in the forest. They wouldn't know that you might harm them. If this were the case, it couldn't be the case... because too many false positives would cause animals to die and they couldn't pass on their survival genes.

So, if your dog, Jess L, isn't fearful of novel things, is very confident with meeting new people and other dogs, seeing somewhat scary, new things, bounces right back after an initial scare, then I'd bet the farm your dog had ample socialization during this early critical window of socialization.

Some dogs need more than others. But since we never know, it's always best to err on the side of caution and not just wait for exposures to happen along, but to actively implement a plan for your puppy, to make it never frightening or bombarding but a regular, daily plan...and to associate very, very high value things with the novel things being introduced...to take a pro-active plan and not to leave anything out. The puppy may learn to like all kinds of strangers and then one day, you're out and about and the dog meets a stranger, but this stranger is wearing a big, black cape and carrying an umbrella. This is not just another person to the dog. This could be a monster. The pup needs to see people wearing weird clothes, carrying lawn chairs and garbage bags, kids of all age groups, kids riding bikes, skateboards, roller blades. The profile changes completely when a human is doing these things. Go visit a farm and stand along side a horse pasture. Feed the dog. lol. There are lots of good books and other reading material on socialization. Jean Donaldson, in her book, Culture Clash describes it very well and she has a wonderful list of ideas.
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  #34  
Old 03-29-2012, 03:12 PM
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http://www.dog-obedience-training-re...alization.html

[QUOTE]All Dogs Need Puppy Socialization

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What Is Puppy Socialization Anyway?

When people talk about puppy socialization they are generally referring to the first 16 weeks of a dog's life. This is the window of time in our puppy's lives that determines who they will become as adult dogs.

The temperament, character and behavior habits of your puppy are developed during this socialization period - and will last a lifetime. It affects how your puppy will relate to his family, strangers, animals and the environment in which he lives.



Puppy socialization stimulates the five senses of your young dog. It is the introduction, exposure and desensitization to the sights, sounds, smells, tastes and touch of everyday life. The socialization period conditions your puppy to the many different situations he needs to be familiar with and comfortable around. It also prepares him to deal with the new experiences and challenges which inevitably arise throughout life in an appropriate manner.

Puppy socialization is the crucial stage where you begin to build the close bond you share with your dog, one that will last forever. It's up to you - any puppy can become a well adjusted and trusted member of society through proper socialization.

We owe it to our puppies to provide them with thorough socialization and training - all dogs need to be socialized regardless of breed type, where you bought the puppy from or anything else you may think of.

There are two main types of puppy socialization:

Active - Things we purposely introduce to our dogs like obedience training, visiting new people and rides in the car.

Passive - What your puppy comes across in her own time like exploring the plants in the back yard.

Note: Always check with your Veterinarian prior to starting your puppy socialization. Socializing your puppy is a balancing act between the need for your puppy's education and experience against the necessity of safeguarding him from disease.





Why Is It So Important To Socialize Our Puppies?

The puppy socialization period (especially the first 16 weeks) is the most critical time for shaping your dog's future temperament, character and behavior habits. If you miss out on socializing your puppy during this period you cannot simply go back and fix the problems later.
Preventing problem behaviors through proper socialization is a much more attractive alternative than trying to correct the undesirable behavior (barking, object guarding, chewing, separation anxiety, dog to dog aggression etc.) that arises from a lack of socialization.
Puppy socialization is an essential ingredient in building and strengthening the bond you will share with your dog throughout his life. The time you put in now will be well rewarded.
Unsocialized Puppies Take A Very Different Path In Life Than A Dog Who Is Properly Socialized

Socializing your puppy has an even bigger influence over her behavior than the breed of dog (boxer, beagle etc.) she is - it's that important.
A socialized puppy is well placed to think, learn and problem solve (including obedience training), where's a fearful stressed dog (unsocialized) is severely restricted in this area.
A well socialized dog will happily accept change, new people, challenges and will interact appropriately with other animals.
Puppy socialization prepares your puppy for the hustle and bustle of everyday life. Things like the vacuum cleaner, dishwasher, lawn mower, cats, TV and whatever else life throws at him.
Puppy socialization educates your dog about appropriate social interaction and how to inhibit aggression towards people and other animals.
Socialization feeds all of the senses and safely, positively promotes emotional and mental stimulation.
What Happens If You Don't Properly Socialize Your Puppy?

An unfortunate but undeniable fact is that the number one reason why dogs end up being euthanized is through a lack of socialization (from the associated problems that arise). The sad part is that socializing your puppy isn't really that difficult.
If you miss the crucial puppy socialization period it's not something you can catch up on later - you have deadlines you must meet!
You end up with a dog that is an outcast to society, one that doesn't fit in and can't be trusted. Sadly there are many dogs in this very situation living out their days permanently confined to the back yard.
Dogs who miss the critical socialization period often exhibit shyness, aggression, timidity, fear towards people, dogs and other animals. They are also often inept at relating with other dogs.
If your puppy is deprived of early social stimulation the result is her physical and emotional health can be irreversibly compromised.
Unexpected events and new experiences are not well received by unsocialized dogs. What we strive for in our dogs is a happy balance between them being cautious and having the confidence to accept and explore new things.


When Does The Puppy Socialization Period Begin?

Pretty much the moment your puppy comes into this world the socialization and habituation window is open.
The mother of your pup begins the socialization process through massaging your puppy with her tongue to control his elimination, also through sound, smell and body language. She is also responsible for giving your puppy his first lesson in discipline.
Litter mates (siblings) learn from each other through play time and social interaction. They discover many aspects of being a dog including how to inhibit their bite and also the language of dominance and submission.
The breeder plays a crucial role in the first 7-8 weeks of your puppy's life. He/she should handle the puppies during this critical period, getting them used to human scent and touch. A good breeder will also begin to get your puppy accustomed to proper household etiquette, noises and basic training.
How Do I Socialize My Puppy?
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  #35  
Old 03-29-2012, 03:13 PM
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Ideally at about the 8 week mark your puppy will arrive at your home, which will be his home for life. Your responsibility to provide him proper socialization starts immediately, you're in control, it's in your hands. This is the beginning of the primary socialization window - make the most of it!
Note: Avoid any situations during this first couple of weeks at home that will scare your puppy (often called the fear impact period). Any major scare (like an aggressive dog approaching) can emotionally damage your pup forever.

Puppy house training, crate training and chew toy training should commence as soon as your new housemate arrives. This is all part of the puppy socialization process, it establishes proper household etiquette, reinforces desirable behavior and prevents bad habits from forming.
Pick your puppy up, stroke her belly, touch her all over while gently talking to her. Also invite other people to do the same.
For your dog's safety and to establish a close bond it's important to begin some obedience training right away. Teach some basic commands such as sit, down, stay and the recall. This do it yourself training membership site will show you how to do it the right way yourself at home - Secrets of a Professional Dog Trainer.
Involve your new puppy in everything you can (isn't this why you got your puppy in the first place?), always under close supervision. Just get her familiar and comfortable with all of the daily routines and happenings of her new household. This is her environment now, we want her to be relaxed and comfortable around things like the vacuum cleaner, dishwasher, TV and noisy children.
It's essential that your puppy meets as many people as possible before he reaches 12 weeks of age. As his vaccinations won't be completed by this stage, it's best if the people come to him. Always make visits a fun, non-threatening experience for your little pup. Encourage play, treats and touch between your visitors and your puppy. If you're game you can also visit some friends with immunized and trustworthy cats or dogs.
Groom your dog, bathe her and clip her nails.
Allow your puppy to explore your home, inside and out. Continue to supervise him but allow him to check things (pot plants, lawn mower, toys etc.) out for himself.
Take your puppy for a boat ride, in an elevator or to the Vet. Anywhere you expect he may need to go as an adult you should expose him to it now - in a safe, non threatening and controlled fashion.
Give your puppy some new toys and play some games with him. Anything that stimulates his mind and makes him problem solve is brilliant for his development. You can play games of hide and seek or build some obstacle courses for him to navigate his way through.
Take your puppy with you on short car trips. Visit some friends or sit at the train station and watch some trains roll by. I don't recommend off leash dog parks as it's hard to know which dogs are vaccinated and of sound temperament. As I mentioned earlier a bad experience during the socialization period can scar your puppy for life.
Once the final canine vaccination shots are done it is a great idea to get along to a good puppy kindergarten. Your puppy will continue to develop her social skills (bite inhibition) in a friendly and safe environment.
As soon as the final vaccinations are completed you can start to get out and about even more. Take your puppy on walks to meet with other dogs, cats and other animals. Also encourage people to come up and pet your puppy while on walks. I still like to avoid off leash dog parks - they're too risky for my liking.

Apart from all of the puppy socialization tips listed above it's important to remember to always have fun with it. Puppy socialization is a fun time, you'll get great pleasure out of watching your pup experience new things for the first time. Enjoy it.


An Introduction To Puppy Socialization Video - Visit clickertraining.com website here


Some other pages you may be interested in:

What should you feed your puppy - What is the best dog food?

Need some puppy supplies? Discount dog supplies store.

Good article about your puppy's developmental priorities.

How to socialize your puppy written by respected clicker trainer, Aidan Bindoff.
Go from Puppy Socialization to How To Train A Dog home page
Top 10 Dog Breeds that Don't Shed (Dog Training Central)
The 7 Things Pet Owners Do That Drive Veterinarians Crazy (Vetstreet)
How To Train A Puppy | Puppy Training | Potty & House Training | Crate Training (Dog Training Central)
How To Stop A Puppy From Biting Nipping & Mouthing | Solve Puppy Biting Problems (Dog Training Central)[/QUOTE]
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  #36  
Old 03-29-2012, 03:18 PM
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That said, or rather copy and pasted, lol....I would not haphazzardly take my puppy out and about. I'd use reasonable care about avoiding highly populated places where a lot of dogs probably were hanging out, like dog parks, rest stops, pet stores...where you don't know the dogs or the people. Maybe there was an outbreak of parvo at this rest stop in this county. But I would walk the puppy around my neighborhood after asking a vet if he'd noticed any epidemic in the area. I'd take the puppy to regular stores, thrift stores, wherever they're allowed. I'd take the puppy to people parks, even if another dog had been there. I'm talking about places where there were probably loads and loads of dogs, concentrated in a small area. The odds are much less in other places where only some dogs have been. In other words, don't isolate a puppy for fear of parvo, but don't be reckless either. There's a happy medium and that does not mean you can't socialize your puppy amply and still be relatively safe.
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  #37  
Old 03-29-2012, 05:05 PM
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Socialisation is very important to me. As soon as I got Teagan I socialised that crap out of her, she went everywhere and then some. Of course if it was a highly populized dog area I would carry her, but right away she was going on camping trips with me, to Canadian tire, Boating, to the dirtbiking track, Canada day celebrations ect ect.

My parents got Emme at 4 months old, and although she is the sweetest dog in the world and nothing seems to phases her she is DA towards strange dogs, and I think thats somthing we could have no issue with if we got her at 8 weeks. At 4 months old she was already showing discomfort with strange dogs.

Now I got Mitsu at 4 months as well, Im trying my best to socialise the crap out of her, but honestly I think I will have no issues with her. She has a great temperment considering she is a BYB Pitbull Cross who spend her first 4 months of her life in a kennel, she has no issues with dogs, people or strange things. She has play dates all the time. ect ect.. Im hoping that will continue. The only thing keeping her down is her health.
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Old 03-29-2012, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran101 View Post
my breeder is a fan of natural rearing as well and yea, all puppies do fine.
Hopefully it always stays that way. But that sort of tends to be a "it's ok until it isn't" sort of situation. I had always raised my puppies the way I did my Parvo litter. Had raised my other litter they same way. And yea, all puppies did fine...until they didn't. It's like that with a lot of stuff I suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyfalcon View Post
So some people here are saying they've seen more dogs with the vaccine get parvo, than those who were not vaccinated.

Whats the vaccination rate? Seems to be pretty high? 90% or more? If it had no effect you'd expect to see a 9:1 rate then.

Are dogs who get the vaccine having worse symptoms if they do catch it? Did the dog receive a massive dose somehow? Does it already have a poor immune system which could not create immunity to the parvo vaccine, and likewise has little chance against a live strain?
Most often what happens with puppies is that they get Parvo before the vaccine has a chance to take effect, so their body ends up battling both the actual virus and the vaccine at the same time. And as such, it can be harder to treat, although I definitely wouldn't say that "most vaccinated puppies who get Parvo will die". FWIW One of my dogs got Kennel Cough a couple days after getting her Rabies vaccine and became deathly ill from the KC.

Much of if a puppy can survive parvo depends on how quickly the puppy's symptoms develop, how quickly they begin treatment, how dedicated their owner and vet are to saving them and what else is going on with them. It's not just badly timed vaccines that can increase the risk of death from parvo. Puppies who get parvo while battling intestinal parasites are at increased risk of dying. As are puppies who have anything else going on that affects their immune systems - demodex, coccidia, giardia, kennel cough, etc. beyodn that many Parvo puppies, both vaccinated and not die because treatment is not given quickly or seriously enough. Symptoms can turn from seemingly minor to life threatening in the same day. Vets sometimes don't think Parvo if the classic symptoms aren't there (namely bloody diarrhea). Or their owners can't afford treatment. Or their vet tells them it's likely the puppy will die anyway. Or they feel they can give herbal remedies and Pedialyte and the puppy will be ok. There's really a lot of variables that come into play.

And yes, breed and individual dog can play a part in the effectiveness of vaccines too. It seems to be harder to form immunity from vaccines in certain breeds (APBT, Rotties, Dobes) than in others. And certain individuals regardless of breed can't form immunity from vaccines, no matter how many they get. So that can undoubtedly add in on the vaccinated dogs getting Parvo.

The nature of Parvo is that it is causes short but intense symptoms which can be life threatening in young puppies. You often know within 24-72 hours of them developing symptoms if they are going to make it or not. It is a danger mostly to young puppies because it attacks the rapidly dividing cells of their intestines. Adult dogs generally have a much hardier intestinal tract, so they tend to be at much less risk for Parvo even when directly exposed. None of my adult dogs had any symptoms and none had a "current" (given that year) Parvo vaccine. The 14 week old puppy I had at the time, who was fully vaccinated also did not get any symptoms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
This^

Compromising socialization during the critical period is a HUGE mistake. Yes, diseases are somewhat of a risk. The horrible emotional effects of an impoverished socialization are not risk. They're a known. The dog will be ruined without ample socialization and spend a lifetime in fear and misery.
Well, it's not really as simple as that. Dogs who are hardwired to be gregarious and not overly sensitive to their environments can often be fine without much socialization. I have known dogs who were taken from bad situations past the age of prime socialization and they've been fine. And I've known dogs taken from similar situations who aren't. Some of it depends on the individual circumstance and dog for sure (two littermates raised with little human contact may act completely different) and socialization is certainly ideal and certainly what I would encourage everyone to do. But not every dog who didn't receive tons and tons and tons of socialization is going to live their life in fear and misery. The Irish Setter we had when I was a kid had little socialization away from home but he was always a pretty happy, friendly, doofy dog. My first dog though, no way he could have become the good dog he did without extensive, ongoing socialization and training.

The breeds I have had for half my life or so now, I would never encourage one to risk not socializing extensively. While I've known some who were ok with less socialization, I wouldn't feel comfortable raising one that way. Breeds that are hard wired to be guardy or suspicious or standoffish with people and super alert to their surroundings definitely should have plenty of proper early socialization and training. It doesn't matter to me though, even if I had a super friendly breed or puppy, I'd still do all the early socialization and training because that's what I think the best way to raise the sort of dog I want is


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
Of course none are 100% but some vacccines are better at providing protection. I think some people have a false sense of security with vaccines. yes some, like rabies, provide excellent protection. Others, like the parvo vaccine, do not make your dog immune to parvo, they just help even the odds.
Luckily enough, the Parvo vaccine is actually pretty effective. Some vaccines aren't (Lepto, Lyme, Bordatella) though.
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  #39  
Old 03-29-2012, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
Hopefully it always stays that way. But that sort of tends to be a "it's ok until it isn't" sort of situation. I had always raised my puppies the way I did my Parvo litter. Had raised my other litter they same way. And yea, all puppies did fine...until they didn't. It's like that with a lot of stuff I suppose.



Most often what happens with puppies is that they get Parvo before the vaccine has a chance to take effect, so their body ends up battling both the actual virus and the vaccine at the same time. And as such, it can be harder to treat, although I definitely wouldn't say that "most vaccinated puppies who get Parvo will die". FWIW One of my dogs got Kennel Cough a couple days after getting her Rabies vaccine and became deathly ill from the KC.

Much of if a puppy can survive parvo depends on how quickly the puppy's symptoms develop, how quickly they begin treatment, how dedicated their owner and vet are to saving them and what else is going on with them. It's not just badly timed vaccines that can increase the risk of death from parvo. Puppies who get parvo while battling intestinal parasites are at increased risk of dying. As are puppies who have anything else going on that affects their immune systems - demodex, coccidia, giardia, kennel cough, etc. beyodn that many Parvo puppies, both vaccinated and not die because treatment is not given quickly or seriously enough. Symptoms can turn from seemingly minor to life threatening in the same day. Vets sometimes don't think Parvo if the classic symptoms aren't there (namely bloody diarrhea). Or their owners can't afford treatment. Or their vet tells them it's likely the puppy will die anyway. Or they feel they can give herbal remedies and Pedialyte and the puppy will be ok. There's really a lot of variables that come into play.

And yes, breed and individual dog can play a part in the effectiveness of vaccines too. It seems to be harder to form immunity from vaccines in certain breeds (APBT, Rotties, Dobes) than in others. And certain individuals regardless of breed can't form immunity from vaccines, no matter how many they get. So that can undoubtedly add in on the vaccinated dogs getting Parvo.

The nature of Parvo is that it is causes short but intense symptoms which can be life threatening in young puppies. You often know within 24-72 hours of them developing symptoms if they are going to make it or not. It is a danger mostly to young puppies because it attacks the rapidly dividing cells of their intestines. Adult dogs generally have a much hardier intestinal tract, so they tend to be at much less risk for Parvo even when directly exposed. None of my adult dogs had any symptoms and none had a "current" (given that year) Parvo vaccine. The 14 week old puppy I had at the time, who was fully vaccinated also did not get any symptoms.



Well, it's not really as simple as that. Dogs who are hardwired to be gregarious and not overly sensitive to their environments can often be fine without much socialization. I have known dogs who were taken from bad situations past the age of prime socialization and they've been fine. And I've known dogs taken from similar situations who aren't. Some of it depends on the individual circumstance and dog for sure (two littermates raised with little human contact may act completely different) and socialization is certainly ideal and certainly what I would encourage everyone to do. But not every dog who didn't receive tons and tons and tons of socialization is going to live their life in fear and misery. The Irish Setter we had when I was a kid had little socialization away from home but he was always a pretty happy, friendly, doofy dog. My first dog though, no way he could have become the good dog he did without extensive, ongoing socialization and training.

The breeds I have had for half my life or so now, I would never encourage one to risk not socializing extensively. While I've known some who were ok with less socialization, I wouldn't feel comfortable raising one that way. Breeds that are hard wired to be guardy or suspicious or standoffish with people and super alert to their surroundings definitely should have plenty of proper early socialization and training. It doesn't matter to me though, even if I had a super friendly breed or puppy, I'd still do all the early socialization and training because that's what I think the best way to raise the sort of dog I want is




Luckily enough, the Parvo vaccine is actually pretty effective. Some vaccines aren't (Lepto, Lyme, Bordatella) though.
That's why I said that some dogs need more than others. But a dog that is locked away, that hardly has any contact with humans or hardly has any exposure to novel things are almost always going to be off. I realize that some dogs are naturally more inclined to be more gregarious and some are naturally prone to be more reserved. A Doberman tends to be more aloof with strangers. They're suppose to be. But they need gobs of socialization so they can learn well what's normal and what isn't. Very important. So, I socialized the living daylights out of Lyric. My Lab had more of a passive socialization. I didn't go as much out of my way as I did with Lyric. She was wonderfully adjusted to life. But a severe lack of exposure to their world around them almost always causes a very bad situation. It is unadvisable imo, to keep a puppy shut away from it's world during it's critical socialization period....from birth to around 16 weeks.

Bad situations...let me tell you of a bad situation that turned out well. Toker, my son's dog: She was found in a garbage bag in a ditch at 4 weeks of age. She was abused severely during a good deal of her puppyhood. My son got her back (long story)...she was however, not unsocialized. She saw things, went places, saw lots of people. She piddled on the floor when I first saw her as a youngster. She cowered and had the worst phobia I've ever seen or heard of regarding nail clipping. She would become so defensive, she was vicious in that and only that situation. Now, seeing her, you'd never guess it. She is over the top friendly and trusting of anyone and everyone. She acts like your stereotypical Lab...full body wag, licking, no hesitation at all about anything. We now can do her nails with clippers or a Dremel. She can go through vet's procedures that often require sedation without sedation. She's amazing. Although she had a rotten childhood, she was not isolated from some good experiences or basic outside things dogs come in contact with.

Anyhow, I'd never take the chance of not socializing a puppy.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:57 PM
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That's not really the case... I have known of quite a few German Shepherd Dogs that were

1) raised as kennel dogs, but wound up being resold to homes where they were brought out and about and did just fine

2) raised and kept by the breeder in a very remote area and taken out to busy cities as adults and took it all in stride.

Two dogs were, interestingly enough, active service dogs. One was a dog bought as a young adult from a large scale breeder who breeds, trains, and imports GSDs, keeping dogs in kennels at the facility, and the other dog was one owned, bred, and trained by a hobby breeder to be a service dog. As far as I understand, the latter breeder lives in a secluded area on a large property, away from other people and busy streets. But even on the very first day she took the dog out to the middle of the city, the dog did very well and completely focused on the task at hand, and was unphased by the hoards of people and other animals bustling around. Same for the dog purchased from the larger scale breeder, the dog spent the first part of its life kenneled, and then was purchased as a companion and service dog prospect. On the dog's first weekend out, it was as if the dog had spent its whole life as someone's constant companion out and about.

I would not say that either of the two dogs were flukes, nor that an unsocialized dog is almost guaranteed to be unbalanced and insecure/fearful.

Honestly, especially among breeds meant to be handler oriented without much regard for others, breeds meant to be confidant and self assured and self possessed, with an excellent nerve base, I feel that genetics are under acknowledged in relativity to socialization.

I would never forgo socialization, and I believe both are important, but give me an unsocialized, dog of good nerve over a well socialized, weak nerved dog ANY day.
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