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  #11  
Old 03-29-2012, 07:57 AM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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and every single time i've seen it, they've all been vaccinated.
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  #12  
Old 03-29-2012, 08:01 AM
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People always suggest "go to safe places", "avoid areas with other dogs", etc. But the truth is, your dog never has to leave your house or property to be exposed to Parvo. I had a litter of 6 week old puppies get it and they were never away from my house or back yard. Parvo is something you can consider a risk in the environment where ever there are people, dogs or wild animals. Possibly where ever there are flies, as it is believed that Parvo can be carried by flies. It can be tracked from yard to yard by wildlife. You, your family or friends could bring it right into your house on your shoes. The mailman could bring it right to your front door on his. While it is spread through feces, dogs shedding the virus produce so much (and it requires so very little for a puppy to get infected) that you never have to see feces to be exposed. You can walk through where Parvo feces were days ago and be exposed. You could stand behind someone in line at the store who has a litter of Parvo puppies at home and be exposed by your shoes coming in contact with what is on their shoes. The virus is extremely hardy and can live for a long time outdoors in the right conditions (indoors generally only about a month). Many cleaners don't kill it and cold simply inactivates it. All in all, it's not all that easy of a virus to avoid. And it is heartbreaking for a puppy to get it.

All that said, I definitely wouldn't wait until 12 weeks to start socializing a GSD puppy. Even having had a litter with Parvo, I don't wait that long to start socializing mine. I tend to be pretty...paranoid when I have a litter now about reducing risk of exposure until they've had their first vaccine (a high titer parvo only or at most parvo/distemper). A few days after they've had their first vaccine though (usually about 7-8 weeks), they start socialization. Yes it is scary after having had Parvo but knowledge is power. I know way more now about the virus and how vaccines work (and how they don't) then I ever did before. There are some breeds that just can't wait until 3 months old to begin socialization just because keeping them home seems safer than taking them out and about.

This is an excellent article about the subject of socialization and vaccines:
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...ialization.pdf

And it's good to know how vaccines work (and how they don't) and I think these articles do a good job of separating fact from fiction:

http://www.caberfeidh.com/PuppyVax.htm

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Revax.htm

Taken from the first article:

Quote:
We don't repeat vaccinations for parvo and distemper because we need vaccines more than once to form immunity. They are repeated for two basic reasons only: Habit, and to catch those few individuals who for some reason don't respond to the first vaccination. A single immunizing dose of a modified live virus vaccine - in other words, one vaccine that works - will form long term, probably lifetime, immunity to parvo and distemper. (Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XIII; 2000; "Vaccines and Vaccinations: Issue for the 21st Century", Richard B. Ford and Ronald D. Schultz; (Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XI, "Canine and Feline Vaccines," Phipps, Schultz; R.D. Schultz, "Considerations in Designing Effective and Safe Vaccination Programs for Dogs," May 2000; Schultz, "Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know.")

We don't need to keep repeating the vaccines to know if they worked, either. Although titers as a measure of ongoing immunity aren't all that useful, as a measure of whether or not an animal formed immunity from a recent vaccination, they are very reliable. ("Vaccines and Vaccinations: Issue for the 21st Century", Richard B. Ford and Ronald D. Schultz. Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XIII, 2000.) Since it takes 7-10 days for the immunity to form, if you test titers ten days after a parvo and/or distemper vaccine, you will know if the puppy had an immunizing response. You don't need to guess.

If your puppy already seroconverted due to the vaccines he or she already was given, there is no reason or benefit to repeat them. She's already immune, and she won't get "more immune." There is no "booster" effect, because the antibodies from the first vaccine will wipe out the vaccine virus, just like maternal antibody does. (Schultz, R.D., "Current and Future Canine and Feline Vaccination Programs." Vet Med 3: No. 3, 233-254, 1998.)
Edit to add in response to the comment about vaccinated puppies dying from parvo...

My puppies were unvaccinated. Of the 6 puppies, 5 become extremely sick with the virus. One did not. Of the 5 who became sick, one died and one came extremely close but pulled through. The others recovered fairly quickly with a lot of care and were eating again within a couple days. The one who almost didn't make it did not eat for 5 or 6 days and was emaciated by time he started to want to eat.

Generally if a vaccinated puppy becomes sick with the virus, they were exposed before (or while) being vaccinated. So there wasn't time for them to develop immunity from the vaccine then their body is dealing with the vaccine and the virus at once, so they are at a higher risk of death. Or more rarely, they aren't able to form immunity from vaccines so it is like they are unvaccinated. Or maternal antibodies affected the vaccine. But they didn't die because they were vaccinated, they died because they were exposed to a potentially fatal virus which definitely also kills puppies who aren't vaccinated who are exposed to it. FWIW Vaccines are generally extremely successful at preventing Parvo, providing the puppy isn't exposed prior to being able to develop immunity from them and that the puppy is able to develop immunity from them.
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  #13  
Old 03-29-2012, 08:10 AM
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I lean toward socializing over vaccines. With the exception of dogs parks and places like Petsmart, I say take her out.

Blaze was out since a bit before 8 weeks (had already had his first set of vacs). We walked in town, on local walking trials, trainer's place, etc. Even on the way home he was out at stops made (it was a 2/3 day trip home).
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  #14  
Old 03-29-2012, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
Well no vaccine is 100% effective, and how severe disease is/whether a puppy gets it vaccinated or not depends somewhat on the amount of virus the puppy is exposed to. We don't see a lot of it here, but every single puppy I've seen with parvo has been unvaccinated, and it's the same story every time... 14-16 week old puppy who has never had vaccines and now is sick. Makes me bang my head against the wall every time, too.
I know of a breeder who "doesn't believe in vaccines" that had a litter of 6 month old unvaccinated puppies get Parvo and become extremely sick with it. Very sad, considering that by 6 months, it would be pretty uncommon for a vaccinated dog to develop Parvo.

Around here, Parvo is extremely widespread and most Parvo puppies I've known or heard about were unvaccinated.
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Old 03-29-2012, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
why do people have such a fear of walking their puppy in a park before it's had 15 shots, but have no problem walking them into a vet clinic to get those shots?

I take puppies everywhere. Not dogs parks, but then I never go to those. city parks, hardware stores, down the streets, everywhere I can think of. and I don't worry about it.
This is my belief as well.
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Old 03-29-2012, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
Well no vaccine is 100% effective, and how severe disease is/whether a puppy gets it vaccinated or not depends somewhat on the amount of virus the puppy is exposed to. We don't see a lot of it here, but every single puppy I've seen with parvo has been unvaccinated, and it's the same story every time... 14-16 week old puppy who has never had vaccines and now is sick. Makes me bang my head against the wall every time, too.
Of course none are 100% but some vacccines are better at providing protection. I think some people have a false sense of security with vaccines. yes some, like rabies, provide excellent protection. Others, like the parvo vaccine, do not make your dog immune to parvo, they just help even the odds.
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  #17  
Old 03-29-2012, 08:41 AM
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Until Simi had ALL of her shots, I only took her to places where she'd meet people and maybe see the odd dog passing by. As soon as she got her last set of shots, we hit the dog filled areas hard core. To me, I wasn't willing to risk it, but even being a really well bred GSD, I wanted to socialize at least some before her final shots, so that was how I compromised. Lots of people interacting with the odd dog far away, but if people asked if their dog could meet her, I said no that she didn't have all of her shots yet and I wanted to be safe. People seemed to understand.
ETA: I didn't really worry about places where other dogs had been... I just worried about her interacting with strange dogs. And in regards to the vets office, until about her last set of shots, she didn't walk into the vets office -- I carried her in in a crate. I do NOT let my dogs interact with others at the vet office no matter the age. The vet is scary to me -- most of those dogs are there for a reason, and that reason could be a sickness my dogs could catch -- no thank you!
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  #18  
Old 03-29-2012, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
I know of a breeder who "doesn't believe in vaccines" that had a litter of 6 month old unvaccinated puppies get Parvo and become extremely sick with it. Very sad, considering that by 6 months, it would be pretty uncommon for a vaccinated dog to develop Parvo.

Around here, Parvo is extremely widespread and most Parvo puppies I've known or heard about were unvaccinated.

I know several breeders who naturally rear (no vaccines) and their dogs do great. If they do get parvo, they tend to recover fairly easily. HOwever, I do know of multiple older dogs, just this last year, that died from parvo, all were vaccinated. Also know of multiple pups that died, most were past their second booster.

I refuse to live my life afraid of the what ifs of a disease. I will be cautious, like didnt take Quke to the vet or dog park, petsmart, etc but he pretty much went everywhere else. He got one parvo vac at 10 weeks, and another at 14.

There was a great article in Dogs Naturally on Parvo back in December I believe. Look up information on it, treatments, etc. Parvaid is something to have ready if you are really worried.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:02 AM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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the whole birds of a feather thing I guess, but I know more people that don't vaccinate for anything other than rabies, and only get puppies from breeders that do not vaccinate for anything before they get them and there really isn't much that goes on.

Pupppies are always healthy, owners are always happy.

i wasn't claiming that vaccination will kill puppies, my point was, what's the difference? If they get it, they get it and I haven't known a single litter of unvaccinated puppies to get it compared to 3 separate litters of vaccinated that have gotten it. you know unvaccinated that get it

They're going to be exposed to it at some point in their lives and once out of that critical puppy stage it's a rare, rare occassion it causes problems in an older dog. My dogs have obviously been exposed to it and none were vaccinated for anything other than rabies.

sure it can happen, but i'm just not worrying about. Keep them healthy and this stuff doesn't really seem to matter other than rare cases. Can't stop the rare cases and there's more important stuff to worry about, like socialization. as many have said, more die from not being socialized that parvo.
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  #20  
Old 03-29-2012, 09:13 AM
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my breeder is a fan of natural rearing as well and yea, all puppies do fine.

Personally, I always choose socialization with common sense.
Just as I would protect my puppy from scary experiences/aggressive dogs.. I avoid certain places so I avoid dog parks more due to the unknown of other dog behavior than for the actual disase factor

but other than that, I would take her everywhere.

Sitting in front of the grocery store on the weekend is AWESOME btw lol so many people
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