Collie that won Westminster is son of double merle

[Spiritwind]

Originally Posted by cliffdog

Pups should have been aborted plain and simple. I hope he culled the poor disabled pups.

Accidents happen, and I have never seen the results of the litter in person, however I believe from the litter, only one puppy was a double merle.. and to my knowledge the dog is actually trained for and does carting (I've seen pictures), so no, the double merle was not put down.

[lizzybeth727]

It's one thing to find homes for (or keep) double merles, getting them spayed/neutered.... It's quite another thing to intentionally create them just to be able to breed them.

[SizzleDog]

Originally Posted by Spiritwind

Accidents happen, and I have never seen the results of the litter in person, however I believe from the litter, only one puppy was a double merle.. and to my knowledge the dog is actually trained for and does carting (I've seen pictures), so no, the double merle was not put down.

I'm curious though... why turn around and breed that dog? Why not neuter him? Was he that spectacular, that valuable to the breed that the collie world would be worse off without his genetic material?

I don't know. Probably just another one of my silly notions. I know if I ever produced a dog like that, I sure as heck wouldn't breed it. He'd be neutered faster than you could say Three Amigos.

[Saeleofu]

Pups should have been aborted plain and simple. I hope he culled the poor disabled pups.

Medically aborting pups is HARD on the bitch, I've seen it first hand multiple times. And I can certainly understand not wanting to spay the bitch. Keeping the double merle pups, or finding suitable pet homes, would be the best option to me. Accidents can happen.

But to go and then BREED that double merle, just because you have him? Not okay in my book. I understand that nothing is genetically wrong with him as far as producing offspring goes, but still, it just doesn't sit well with me.

I just don't get breeding purely for color. Honestly I adore all the colors of collies, and the color would have NO impact on what pup I would choose. If anything I'm partial to tri-colors, but maybe just because it's grown on me

Collies have enough genetic issues to deal with, we don't need to go creating more just just for shits and giggles.

[Spiritwind]

Originally Posted by lizzybeth727

It's one thing to find homes for (or keep) double merles, getting them spayed/neutered.... It's quite another thing to intentionally create them just to be able to breed them.

My personal opinion, if you are going to breed merle x merle (and I have NO plans to ever do so), ANY double merles you get YOU should be responsible for, for their entire life... meaning I do not think they should be pawned off to other owners. I don't think I could, even giving the dog away, pass on a dog to someone that is most likely deaf and/or blind.

I could never do a merle x merle breeding...

As far ad breeding double merles, them being deaf and blind is linked to the doubling of the merle gene. It will not be passed on to their offspring (unless of course you breed a double merle to antoher merle), so if the double merle is bred to a non-merle the puppies will not be blind or deaf... at least not deaf or blind because of doubling of the merle gene. However MOST double merles cannot have their eyes cerf checked, because many of them have eyes tht are not completely formed, or they are microophthalmic, or completely lacking eyes, so doing eye checks on a double merle is almost impossible, however there are now DNA tests for both CEA and PRA in Collies, which I guess could be done.

Originally Posted by SizzleDog

I'm curious though... why turn around and breed that dog? Why not neuter him? Was he that spectacular, that valuable to the breed that the collie world would be worse off without his genetic material?

I don't know. Probably just another one of my silly notions. I know if I ever produced a dog like that, I sure as heck wouldn't breed it. He'd be neutered faster than you could say Three Amigos.

I can't answer that question. It was not my dog, so I cannot answer why anyone felt the dog should be bred. As I posted above, it's not just Collies. The sheltie that was BOB at the 2010 Westminster was also sired by a Double merle. I've actually seen MANY more double merle shelties than Collies.

However, a double merles deafness and blindness is linked to the doublding of the merle gene. It is not genetic in that it will not be passed on to it's offsping, unless of course it was bred to another merle... not saying that makes it all right to do, but I can't really answer your question since I am not the breeder of the double merles and I cannot knnow what they were thinking in their reasoning to breed the dog.

[lizzybeth727]

Originally Posted by SizzleDog

I'm curious though... why turn around and breed that dog? Why not neuter him? Was he that spectacular, that valuable to the breed that the collie world would be worse off without his genetic material?

I don't know. Probably just another one of my silly notions. I know if I ever produced a dog like that, I sure as heck wouldn't breed it. He'd be neutered faster than you could say Three Amigos.

^^That.

Also, when I'm looking for a puppy, I want to know about the sire and dam's conformation (how they fare in shows as well as health checks) AND performance (are they shown in agility, herding, obedience, etc.). In most performance events, of course, blind/deaf dogs cannot compete. Obviously in conformation shows, blind/deaf dogs cannot compete. And the dog won't be able to get his eyes checked, which is hugely important in collies. So basically I know nothing about the sire; I'd have to research into his parents and hope for the best.

[cliffdog]

I understand not wanting to spay/abort the bitch, but when you make a mistake, you take responsibility for it. Better for the collie world to lose a great brood bitch than for a litter of blind, deaf puppies to be brought into this world only to suffer. I mean were not talking about a litter of mutts here, which could be found good homes and live long, happy lives. Were taking about pups with serious, life-ruining disabilities.

[Romy]

Originally Posted by cliffdog

I understand not wanting to spay/abort the bitch, but when you make a mistake, you take responsibility for it. Better for the collie world to lose a great brood bitch than for a litter of blind, deaf puppies to be brought into this world only to suffer. I mean were not talking about a litter of mutts here, which could be found good homes and live long, happy lives. Were taking about pups with serious, life-ruining disabilities.

First off, I despise the idea of intentionally breeding double merle litters. Just wanted to get that out of the way.

My main point:

Unless both parents are double merle (shudder) breeding merle to merle only gives each individual puppy a 1 in 4 chance of being double merle. Of those unfortunate animals, they aren't guaranteed to be malformed. Plenty of double Ms are born with fine sight and hearing, or only slight impairments (like deaf in one ear). Plenty aren't, but just because there's a 1/4 chance a puppy might be born with a bad gene combo that then might render them disabled to some degree doesn't, IMO justify risking a bitch's life through abortive procedures.

One of the common side affects of the mismate shot is that it causes their body to reject their own bone marrow. Most vets refuse to administer it for more than one accidental mating in the dog's lifetime because the risk to the bitch is so high. Also, doing a spay abort is substantially more risky than a normal spay. The repro vet my dog's breeder uses had to do a C-section on one of her bitches because her uterine horn ruptured and went septic. Even that vet said that if it had been a normal C-section and there was no rupture or infection she would have preferred to let the dog heal up and recover from the pregnancy with all her parts intact before doing a spay.

And it's not a question of what's best for "the collie world". It's a question of the people who love their dog, and are trying to make the best decision for their dog's health and safety. I sure as heck would not feel comfortable giving that shot to my dog. And I wouldn't want to risk a spay abort unless the risks of carrying to term outweighed the procedure, such as if I had a chihuahua impregnated by a lab.

Personally, I think that in a case of accidental M/M breeding it's a lot safer for the bitch to carry the litter to term, and assess the puppies when they are born. Merle/merle puppies aren't suffering horribly when they're born. Not any more than any other puppy, when you consider ALL dogs are blind and deaf at birth.

If a puppy turns out to have a major impairment and you're not equipped to care for them, then you need to do the right thing and let them go in a humane manner.

And glad to know you think blindness and deafness are serious, life ruining disabilities. Dogs don't rely on vision as heavily as humans do, and PLENTY of human go on to live happy fulfilling lives devoid of sight or sound. I know of one double merle dog that has no eyes and he is extremely happy, loving, and stable. He actually works as a therapy dog in a hospital for children with "serious, life ruining disabilities", showing them that it's possible to have a full and happy life even if your body doesn't fully function.

[cliffdog]

Perhaps i'm just anthropomorphizing. Because I personally would prefer death to being deaf and blind. If I was in possession of a blind/deaf dog I'd put the poor SOB to sleep.

I'm not talking about a mismate shot, I'm talking about scheduling a spay the moment I found out what happened.

ETA: sorry, I see you also mentioned the spay/abort.

Just what I would do. I don't believe in bringing deformities into the world.
Fortunately for me I don't fancy any breeds in which Merle occurs with the exception of corgis, and I have no intention of owning a Merle, or at least not an intact one. Too dangerous a gene for me to want to handle.

[Romy]

I have to admit, I'm really happy that my chosen breed has every color except merle.