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  #41  
Old 02-08-2012, 06:11 PM
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I think the main reason we've switched to almost all runnings is because it is SO easy to demotivate your dog with a stop if it's not really carefully monitored. We've all seen the pathetic "creep" down the back side of the frame when it's not trained incredibly carefully. With a running, you'll never have that issue (you just have to balance the leaping instead--but I'd rather have an over-excited leaper than a timid crawler)
Interestingly enough, Meg got far faster on the contacts when I switched her to a stopped contact. She's softer than butter, and absolutely needs to know what she needs to do to be right, or she stresses and shuts down. A stopped contact is so much clearer to her, especially when you add in human error for reinforcement timing. She would creep down her "running" contacts looking for the point of reinforcement; with stopped, she can drive straight down into it. Granted, training Meg has made me stop expecting the expected in just about everything, so I'm not sure why I'd find that surprising!

More than anything, I think it is important for trainers and students to be willing to figure out what is right for them and their dog. It is one of the things I love best about where I train; everything is tailored to each pair. In our performance puppy class, we have two dogs doing a 2o2o, one dog doing running with a treat thrown, and one doing running with hoops. Meg's competition class has a few dogs doing super running contacts and a few doing super stopped contacts. My trainer has 2 competition dogs doing stopped, one doing running.

Gusto is doing stopped contacts for both his sake and mine. He is a dog for whom speed and drive will likely never be an issue - control will be. He's built great for stopped contacts (much better than Meg, which is why I had originally wanted to do running with her). I like the very defined criteria myself (hello, obsessive dressage rider), and I like and likely need that moment to help my handling! I don't expect to go to Worlds where those 1/10ths of seconds count (and let's be honest, when you get to that point, you early release and fix the issue later ). I'd like to go back to Cynosport with Gusto in a few years, and if he does as well there as Meg did with her stopped contacts, I will be over the moon!
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  #42  
Old 02-08-2012, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Panzerotti View Post

Nice! You can tell she's into it and having fun. Are you planning on trialing?
She definitely loves it! Haven't deciding on trialing yet - I think we've still got a way to go... and by we, I definitely mean myself

Here she is working on weaves in early January. Haven't got a new video since then. Trying to build drive/speed, as well as getting down different entrance positions and such.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnh2O81XTuw
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  #43  
Old 02-08-2012, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
It wouldn't really matter they would do that off a dog walk or frame too, just happened to be the teeter.



As I mentioned (and someone else did) its venue specific to a point. I would have no issue what so ever doing running with CPE. Courses just aren't that trappy and there is more space between things. To a point you need to train to what you are going to run. My fave is AAC, and the AAC courses seem to be being more and more trappy so either you need crazy directionals, or a stop. I dont' know what it is you run.

With JRTs a stop is the easiest

Also its a matter of know your dog. Fast dogs who take wide corners actually take longer on course than slower dogs who take better lines. So if stop contacts aids in control and saves you from having to call your dog back it can help you save time. (a stop doesn't have to be long at all either)
Just to clarify, in AAC the vast majority of dogs (at least those trained in the last 3-4 yrs and the ones I have seen and/or know from Ontario and Quebec) have RC's. Yes there are some that are still training stopped or
2o2o but those that are looking to be highly competitive have running. I also know many ppl that have retrained from 2o2o to RC lately. DW and Frame, some even have running/riding it down and fly teeters as well. And it isn't the slow dogs either, it's the stinking fast dogs. Only reasons some are still training stopped contacts (me being one of them with my young dog because I have health issues and thinking of the day when I may need that stop) is, 1) not up on the latest trends and training methods 2) need a dog to stop because of the handlers lack of skill or physical limitations. 3) Running dogs that were trained with stopped/2o2o and don't want to risk retraining or changing what works.

As for our courses, yes very much a international or european style is present, especially at Masters. Many training facilities and seminars are now offering classes to help people prepare for it. Tight, tight courses, pull/push throughts, back jumping, nasty entries and awkward serps are the norm.

This is the finals of the Steeplechase at the AAC Nationals from last year (2011), most of the dogs had RCs, that observation isn't from this short video of a few dogs but from being there.

http://dogsport.org/dynamodogs/archives/4517

Last edited by adojrts; 02-08-2012 at 10:39 PM.
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  #44  
Old 02-09-2012, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by adojrts View Post
Just to clarify, in AAC the vast majority of dogs (at least those trained in the last 3-4 yrs and the ones I have seen and/or know from Ontario and Quebec) have RC's. Yes there are some that are still training stopped or
2o2o but those that are looking to be highly competitive have running. I also know many ppl that have retrained from 2o2o to RC lately. DW and Frame, some even have running/riding it down and fly teeters as well. And it isn't the slow dogs either, it's the stinking fast dogs. Only reasons some are still training stopped contacts (me being one of them with my young dog because I have health issues and thinking of the day when I may need that stop) is, 1) not up on the latest trends and training methods 2) need a dog to stop because of the handlers lack of skill or physical limitations. 3) Running dogs that were trained with stopped/2o2o and don't want to risk retraining or changing what works.

As for our courses, yes very much a international or european style is present, especially at Masters. Many training facilities and seminars are now offering classes to help people prepare for it. Tight, tight courses, pull/push throughts, back jumping, nasty entries and awkward serps are the norm.

This is the finals of the Steeplechase at the AAC Nationals from last year (2011), most of the dogs had RCs, that observation isn't from this short video of a few dogs but from being there.

http://dogsport.org/dynamodogs/archives/4517
Do you see different/stronger support skills being trained (directions, strong voice discrim, etc.) or are most people doing what I would do and mostly just getting some distance and hauling a** to get to where they need to be? lol

The only reason Mira doesn't have true running contacts is because I had no contact access at all during the vast majority of her training. Not once a week or once a month...none. Moved states at the wrong time! She learned mostly on a 4' contact board. Which "worked" but contacts are the weakest part of her performance in terms of confidence and speed (though ironically she's never missed a contact in competition, at least so far).
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  #45  
Old 02-09-2012, 06:41 AM
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From what I have seen (granted I haven't been travelling as much to trial) is people not having 'real' RC but training a stop and then releasing early so you can still have the stop if you need to but can also have the speed of a RC. Its hard to see unless you listen for their release as the dog comes down the equip that it isnt' just a RC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5NYJSwwo-U this dog was trained with stops, can you tell its not a 'real' running contact?

or this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5nCx-oJvak now you can see in many cases the dog rock back and be ready to stop, but don't.

Not saying no one is training RC! people are. But has been mentioned judges are now making traps for dogs who either have no stop or lack excellent directionals/contact discrimination. A stop doesn't have to be long.
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  #46  
Old 02-09-2012, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
From what I have seen (granted I haven't been travelling as much to trial) is people not having 'real' RC but training a stop and then releasing early so you can still have the stop if you need to but can also have the speed of a RC. Its hard to see unless you listen for their release as the dog comes down the equip that it isnt' just a RC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5NYJSwwo-U this dog was trained with stops, can you tell its not a 'real' running contact?

or this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5nCx-oJvak now you can see in many cases the dog rock back and be ready to stop, but don't.
If you're well versed in how RCs are trained (not just dogs who hit them because they are slow or dogs who have HopeNPray contacts) it isn't that hard to tell, especially on the DW. With dogs trained for a 2o2o release, there will be deceleration on the down ramp. FWIW the aframe got called on that last video. Also SG now claims her past 3 or so dogs were all trained to do both RCs and 2o2o.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHgBDsWPToY

This might be one of the first dogs to ever compete at the highest levels (2x World Champion I believe?) with a trained RC. She's 9 years old in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGLh3u-xW14

This gives a good idea about how turns are taught:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWDaddzV8nw

My dog who developed a creeping issue on the contacts is a pretty bold, confident dog and not what I would call soft. I think it's often more of an anticipation issue. Regardless, if SG's recent blog is any indication lots and lots of people struggle with creeping into the stopped contact position.
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  #47  
Old 02-09-2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by elegy View Post
For those who train running contacts, how often do your dogs see equipment?
At least once a week for Sloan.


Now we're focusing on weave entry because I'm finding in a full course with tight turns she's totally missing her entry. Back track and rework time.
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  #48  
Old 02-09-2012, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
If you're well versed in how RCs are trained (not just dogs who hit them because they are slow or dogs who have HopeNPray contacts) it isn't that hard to tell, especially on the DW. With dogs trained for a 2o2o release, there will be deceleration on the down ramp. FWIW the aframe got called on that last video. Also SG now claims her past 3 or so dogs were all trained to do both RCs and 2o2o.
Exactly. But not everyone knows what to look for.

AND I would rather my dog rock back on their hocks and not slam into the ground with the front end at the bottom of the frame. (dog walk is no biggie)
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  #49  
Old 02-09-2012, 11:44 AM
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I swear I know a thing or two about training dogs, but when I read some of these responses, I don't know what the **** you guys are talking about I need to learn some new lingo apparently as I am definitely not well versed in agility speak

RC's, isn't that a remote car or airplane?

HopeNpray- is that something in church? this could be very valuable in dog training as well. I'm sure we've all been there before.
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  #50  
Old 02-09-2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
This gives a good idea about how turns are taught:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWDaddzV8nw
Thank you this looks helpful!
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