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  #271  
Old 05-13-2012, 01:59 PM
~Tucker&Me~ ~Tucker&Me~ is offline
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Is he target trained? I'm wondering if you could substitute a target for the toy (still a visual object for him to focus on), then click the target touch and reward with the toy from your hand.
He is target trained, and that is not a bad idea. So if he didn't perform the exercise correctly, when he touched the target I just wouldn't follow up with toy play?
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  #272  
Old 05-13-2012, 02:03 PM
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My issue is, two of these exercises require me to leave the toy on the ground and out of reach while he drives to it. The first one is a Susan Salo exercise, there are 5 jumps, 6 feet apart and only 8 inches in height, and I am to reward him when he takes each individually and doesn't 'bounce' over two at once. For this exercise, when he doesn't do it right, I can't get to the toy before he does. The other exercise is the set point one, and like the grid I cannot reach the toy in time before he gets it.
Are you starting the exercises with him in a sit right in front of the first jump so that he isn't entering with speed?

Also, what about breaking it down for him at first? Put the toy right in front of the second jump and reward him for taking the first jump alone a few times so that he understands that they are 2 separate jumps.

He really likes extension this guy, lol!
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  #273  
Old 05-13-2012, 02:11 PM
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Are you starting the exercises with him in a sit right in front of the first jump so that he isn't entering with speed?

Also, what about breaking it down for him at first? Put the toy right in front of the second jump and reward him for taking the first jump alone a few times so that he understands that they are 2 separate jumps.

He really likes extension this guy, lol!
These two exercises I need help with I start him very close to the bars so he doesn't build up a lot of speed

My trainer did have me do that, when he bounced (always the last two jumps in the sequence), I would put the toy in front of the last jump to reward him landing between them. I would repeat 4-5 times to try and cement the concept before asking him for the last jump but when I went back to doing the whole sequence he was right back to bouncing. When we stopped allowing him to grab the toy though, he did start to land. I think that being allowed to grab the toy was enough of a reward in addition to simply enjoying the "wheee!" aspect of bouncing So while I was trying to only reward taking the jumps individually, he still enjoyed grabbing the toy and bouncing enough to continue doing what he felt comfortable doing (bouncing). Anyway, long story short I did try to reward smaller steps and it does work, but ultimately if he can still grab the toy bouncing is clearly way more fun to him than having to land

Oh gosh he sure loves it lol. I feel optimistic about the exercises we are doing helping him in class, but I still don't feel that confident that they will transfer over to a trial setting. I have a feeling he will go right back to major extension and I will be left standing there like this --> lol.

Oh well, I'll see what happens with time. Also I am going to try and get a video of the stuff we are doing so I can post it and get feedback from you guys

ETA: I really appreciate the help, advice and opinions you guys have given me. I feel bad because I never contribute help to this thread but always ask for your thoughts lol. If I knew more I promise I would contribute, I just don't know diddly squat about agility compared to you guys lol.
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  #274  
Old 05-13-2012, 02:16 PM
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Yeah, video is always helpful, and the target idea might be your best option if you don't have someone to help you.

Does he have a solid sit stay? If you lead out and place the toy far enough out past the last jump and stand beside it you could (theoretically) steal it away in time if he bounced maybe?
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  #275  
Old 05-13-2012, 08:03 PM
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I agree that there is probably a lot of things that come into the reliability of RCs. We can never see every single rep people do, so there is always the possibility that there is more going on behind the scenes than we realize. Like I said, we have some people who train running contacts where I train, and they are fantastic. Carefully trained, carefully maintained. As soon as the dogs start lifting their heads through the contact, they put in more reps. And they are remarkably reliable. Not faultless, of course, because they are dogs, but very good. Getting to see them worked on definitely gives me respect for those who train super running contacts.
That is awesome you have people training true RCs where you train! I wish there were more people into more serious agility training around here.

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I love my stopped contacts, and will keep striving to have those crazy fast independent ones with Gusto. Heaven knows I'm going to need as much obstacle independence as possible with the little loon!
I love the idea of RCs and love watching dogs with good ones but I probably wouldn't encourage more people I see at class to try them. I think 2o2o is ideal for many dogs/handlers for a variety of reasons.

I can't wait to see videos of Gusto doing agility - he sounds like way too much fun!
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  #276  
Old 05-14-2012, 11:27 AM
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Everyone has an opinion of course but I tend to question anytime someone says "never, ever" concerning dog training and what works or doesn't.
It wasn't it quotation marks, I'm sure she didn't use those exact words. The point was that there is not a method out there that creates 100% reliable running contacts for every dog yet and that if you choose that method that you will have missed contacts. That rings true for every method though, it just seems that having a stopped contact makes for more reliable results.
She also pointed out that a lot of the people that are known for running contacts and seem to never miss in trials tend to only post the good videos (who doesn't?) and that she has witnessed a lot of those trainers, including the European ones, in trial and they miss a lot more than they lead on.

Another interesting point she brought up is that those dogs that thrive on being right do not do well with running contacts. The reason behind this is because those dogs tend to slow down and lose motivation if they are wrong. So, for every non-rewarded time, they are slowing down just a hair. Yes they will have beautiful running contacts during training then, however when they are high at trials, the contacts tend to fall apart. This is why they need to be trained when the dog is flat out running (Trkman) and that slowing down from lack of motivation ruins it. Zuma couldn't ever learn RC because of this. She and I both need absolute black and white criteria otherwise our motivation suffers. Yes, I may train RC on a dog in the future if they arn't as soft as Zuma, but it's not the right method for her.
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  #277  
Old 05-14-2012, 03:53 PM
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Here are the videos for our Saturday runs..

First is Novice JWW... Things I liked about this run: start line stay, she stayed connected for the most part. Things that need improvement: would it kill her to collect and wrap a jump like we've been practicing for MONTHS?! I accidentally pushed her around that jump causing a refusal because of that stupid post (but now I know that it would've been better to send her further rather than move in closer). The weave entrance was awful, should've collected her sooner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_SSM...ature=youtu.be

Here's our standard run... if you look closely, you can see little bits of Zuma brain from her mind explosion. You can tell she wasn't connected at all even at the start line, she was making googly eyes at the judge the whole time which caused her teeter weirdness.. It was all lost from there. LOL My fav part is when the crowd stopped "awww"ing and started laughing along with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwmv5...ature=youtu.be

All in all, good fun learning experience for the baby dog in a new location. We had things go very well (she held a start line stay for me to lead out THREE jumps on Sunday!!), and things we need to improve on.
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  #278  
Old 05-14-2012, 04:02 PM
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Lol at googly eyes at the judge.

Great runs, and she is so going to be absolutely amazing when she learns how to keep her brain in her head.

Just out of curiosity, how tall is she? Is she jumping 20" in these vids?
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  #279  
Old 05-14-2012, 04:08 PM
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Lol at googly eyes at the judge.

Great runs, and she is so going to be absolutely amazing when she learns how to keep her brain in her head.

Just out of curiosity, how tall is she? Is she jumping 20" in these vids?
I can't wait for her to get there!! She runs very nicely at our home school, but I've been getting her out trialing at the surrounding venues to help her learn to avoid the brain explosion.

She's 17.75", I elect to jump her 20" because she has a hard time collecting over jumps and tends to jump very flat at 16". She jumps in extension regardless at trials and we are trying to fix that.
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  #280  
Old 05-14-2012, 04:42 PM
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It wasn't it quotation marks, I'm sure she didn't use those exact words. The point was that there is not a method out there that creates 100% reliable running contacts for every dog yet and that if you choose that method that you will have missed contacts. That rings true for every method though, it just seems that having a stopped contact makes for more reliable results.
That's all I was getting at - nothing is 100% reliable with dogs. It seems silly to me to hold contacts to a higher standard than everything else in agility. People still love 2x2 weaves even though they proved not to be 100% reliable even with SG's own dogs. But let one person see a RC trainer's dog fly off one time and it's proof that the method won't work.

FWIW My handling and running ability is definitely not 100% reliable either


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Originally Posted by SaraB View Post
Another interesting point she brought up is that those dogs that thrive on being right do not do well with running contacts. The reason behind this is because those dogs tend to slow down and lose motivation if they are wrong. So, for every non-rewarded time, they are slowing down just a hair. Yes they will have beautiful running contacts during training then, however when they are high at trials, the contacts tend to fall apart. This is why they need to be trained when the dog is flat out running (Trkman) and that slowing down from lack of motivation ruins it. Zuma couldn't ever learn RC because of this. She and I both need absolute black and white criteria otherwise our motivation suffers. Yes, I may train RC on a dog in the future if they arn't as soft as Zuma, but it's not the right method for her.
Silvia Trkman's Bu is from all accounts about weird and soft as you can get and she has really nice RCs. This is what she says about training such dogs RCs (not trying to change your mind about them of course or say you should try it with Zuma, just adding to the discussion):

Quote:
- I started the plank work, but my dog is very shy&sensitive, a kind of like your Lo, and will slow down completely when I say "no" when she jumps at the end of a plank.

Oh, no, my Lo is lion brave in comparison to Bu... She had many traumas as the puppy, but she never shuts down like you describe - it's not Lo-like at all, when Lo has a feeling something is not quite right, she only gets louder and more hysterical, but will never shut down: more you frustrate her, more energy she'll be putting into it. What you describe is very Bu-like.

First thing you should do is to stop saying "no". I don't know how soft or not you say it, but I use very soft and almost happy "ups" - it shouldn't sound like "no, don't do that", but like "what a great joke, but you're still not getting a reward for that". HOWEVER, with extremely soft, sensitive, Bu-like dogs, even that is too much. So what I did when contact was not as good as I wanted was to simply send her around me and back to a plank, with a happy excited voice, but no click&no reward. Also, when starting with normal dog-walk, I just ignored the jumps, didn't stop her but continue a sequence so that it took me back to dog-walk eventually and when it was good, went absolutely frantic about how great she is. The funny thing with Bu is that even if you click& reward, she will sometimes not believe you she did good enough and starts to worry, so you really need to act as the happiest person in the world for like 10 minutes before she believes it. I was never so tired as I am after every training with her, I sure do miss La's attitude: "it's your fault, we all know I'm perfect". If your dog is a worrier, make sure you don't give him any reason to worry!

With Bu-like dogs, you can't afford too many mistakes + you can't afford marking them, so
1. don't say anything, stay happy, send her back happily
2. heave it even less as you do: one by one centimetre if it's needed for her to succeed

At this stage, you shouldn't be getting much jumping anyway, your plank should be so low that it should still be natural for her to just run. If positioning of the legs is not perfect, don't worry about it, reward everything that is not actual jump (meaning prolonging a stride at the end or making it higher). You will work on positioning of legs later.
http://www.silvia.trkman.net/
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