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  #1151  
Old 06-07-2013, 03:48 PM
SaraB SaraB is offline
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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
So does showing up at an agility seminar you paid for and being told "I don't know how you are going to be able to do this if your dog won't play with toys".
Dafuq. Seriously?? Way to think outside of the box. Is this a national-known trainer? If so, can you PM me please?
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  #1152  
Old 06-07-2013, 03:55 PM
crazedACD crazedACD is offline
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Originally Posted by Beanie View Post
100% agree. The best agility dog is YOUR agility dog!!

*flips table*

ARGH IT JUST MAKES ME SO MAD >=<
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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
Someone have a flame suit I can borrow?



Lazy trainers. That's all there is to it, in my mind, and it just gets fed into more and more, as they spread that attitude around. Not that those who run border collies are lazy; I equally despise the "border collies are born knowing agility!" attitude. But anyone collecting money as an instructor who has that to offer as advice is lazy.

Training a BC isn't always going to be easy, but the answers to everything you may encounter are out there. "We" (not me, but the Agility World as a whole) know how to train these dogs. People have put in the work already, finding out how to train different skills in a dog with the mind and body of a typical border collie. You don't have to think out answers yourself.

I can appreciate a border collie with super gamble skills, or one who has those weaves or contacts that make your heart stop a bit. But I'm not really "impressed" for lack of a better word.

If a trainer wants to dazzle me with their skills, show me how to get my soft, non-toy motivated hound to run full speed over a dog walk. Teach a toy dog to leave their owner and go out 20' to the weave poles. Help me figure out how to get my easily distracted terrier mix baby dog to sit on the start line, quivering with anticipation and focused on the first obstacle. Don't say "tugging is a prerequisite" - find a way to make it work with a dog who doesn't like tugging.

My first question when looking at possible seminars to attend is "what have they successfully trained for dogs"? Going to someone whose success is built entirely upon BCs is likely to be wrong for me. I want either that trainer or their students successfully running other breeds. I want to know they can do it, and create happy dogs and handlers.

I learned this all the hard way; I've only attended probably a half-dozen seminars presented by different people (I've repeated some people I really liked). Without fail, the ones who I go back to over and over and stalk online for further opportunities are the ones who have success at a national or international level with Not Border Collies (or at least not exclusively with BC). They problem solve, they look at the dogs as individuals, and help you figure out what motivates THIS dog in THIS situation and create a system that works for you and your dog.

/rant
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Originally Posted by SaraB View Post
This. So much this.

I know TONS of trainers that can train a toy motivated dog to do agility. I can count on one hand the number of trainers that can train any breed to do agility. Those are the trainers I learn from, those are the trainers I aspire to.
This is inspiring .
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  #1153  
Old 06-07-2013, 04:03 PM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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So does showing up at an agility seminar you paid for and being told "I don't know how you are going to be able to do this if your dog won't play with toys".
I was teasing, the grass is always greener was my point. It is common to recommend border collies for the sport, it is understandable why they are more common.

It is frustrating when trainers tell you you're SOL, you're not alone, I have been told in sports besides agility my low food drive dog should just be starved or black boxed to build drive and that it's a shameful waste of time trying if I can't use food for fine details. While I do understand and am desperately craving more food drive its not fair to label us hopeless nor am i will to go to drastic measures to build his food drive. Sorry, I'm tired of people asking me what's wrong with my rescue (eer... Well bred and taken care of breeder bought dog).

It's also very hard to not take it to heart. I applaud you for sticking with it. I know I have given up(and thus far restarted) many times.
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  #1154  
Old 06-07-2013, 04:15 PM
DenoLo DenoLo is offline
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At our first trial ever, somebody said "Oh surely you must just be here to observe". And later on my friends overheard somebody say about her "Cute but not desirable". I use that phrase frequently now like when she noses through my purse.

But those were isolated, everybody for the most part has been super nice and we always get applause even if ut's not desirable LOL
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  #1155  
Old 06-07-2013, 04:20 PM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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That's so messed up, I would love to see you two run.

Sometimes I really don't know what's worse, having a dog that no one thinks can do it and thus ignores you or having a dog that everyone expects the world from and your best just isn't up to snuff.
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  #1156  
Old 06-07-2013, 04:23 PM
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BostonBanker BostonBanker is offline
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Dafuq. Seriously?? Way to think outside of the box. Is this a national-known trainer? If so, can you PM me please?
Not at all. A fairly local person, and not even a big name here. It was a short intro to 2x2 seminar I took a million years ago, when it was just starting to be "the thing". It was basically "throw the toy alone this line". "Okay, but she isn't going to care about the toy." "Well, you are SOL."

Quote:
I was teasing, the grass is always greener was my point.
I figured it was a joke (at least half way!). I know we all have the same thoughts. You have speed? You want control. You have toy drive? You wish you had food drive. You have a slow steady dog? You want that crazy speed!

I don't really blame people for getting a BC for the sport. It just turns into a self fulfilling prophecy. All the big trainers run a BC, therefore they know how to train one well. So they tell their students to get BCs. So there is a huge preponderance of BC at the top level, so everyone thinks that if they want to succeed there, they need to get a BC, so the people who are serious about it, get a BC. So it stays all BC at the top levels. And on and on.

The kicker is, I really like border collies outside of agility as well as in, but I feel like if I ever get one, I'll be seen as just another person getting one for the sport. Oh well. I've got a lot of years of trying to figure Gusto out before I even think about another dog!
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  #1157  
Old 06-07-2013, 04:27 PM
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BostonBanker BostonBanker is offline
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Sometimes I really don't know what's worse, having a dog that no one thinks can do it and thus ignores you or having a dog that everyone expects the world from and your best just isn't up to snuff.
I know people stuck on both ends of that spectrum, and I think there is an equal amount of suckage. I think I'm fortunately kind of in the middle with Gusto, but definitely on the far "you are seriously running her?" end with Meg.

Quote:
And later on my friends overheard somebody say about her "Cute but not desirable".
Sure they were talking about the dog?
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  #1158  
Old 06-07-2013, 04:27 PM
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Shai Shai is offline
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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
Lazy trainers. That's all there is to it, in my mind, and it just gets fed into more and more, as they spread that attitude around. Not that those who run border collies are lazy; I equally despise the "border collies are born knowing agility!" attitude. But anyone collecting money as an instructor who has that to offer as advice is lazy.

[snip]

My first question when looking at possible seminars to attend is "what have they successfully trained for dogs"? Going to someone whose success is built entirely upon BCs is likely to be wrong for me. I want either that trainer or their students successfully running other breeds. I want to know they can do it, and create happy dogs and handlers.

I learned this all the hard way; I've only attended probably a half-dozen seminars presented by different people (I've repeated some people I really liked). Without fail, the ones who I go back to over and over and stalk online for further opportunities are the ones who have success at a national or international level with Not Border Collies (or at least not exclusively with BC). They problem solve, they look at the dogs as individuals, and help you figure out what motivates THIS dog in THIS situation and create a system that works for you and your dog.

/rant
Yeahhh my Biggest Waste of Money seminar, by far, was with a person who has only ever had BCs. A person who has been extremely successful on the national and international stage and who is touted as an excellent educator. Who had no flippin clue how to help the non-BC/non-BC-like dogs in the seminar...in a class that was mostly non-BCs.

It was ridiculous.

The best seminar instructor I've ever had, by far, was a far less well-known person who has had success on the national and world stages as well, but who has trained and competed successfully with a wide variety of breeds and sizes, from herders to terriers, toy to 24".

Again I like the breed. But having success with them and only them is an individual accomplishment. It is not indicative of a person that would have success with anything else. Much like the gal who runs a hound quite successfully at my local club has no idea how to help the people who show up with intense BCs, terriers, and retrievers. She's a niche person. And that's okay in her case, because she recognizes it and directs those people to instructors more suited to their problem set. An honest self-assessment that some of the top agility presenters don't seem capable of making.
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  #1159  
Old 06-07-2013, 04:30 PM
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Shai Shai is offline
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Originally Posted by BostonBanker View Post
I don't really blame people for getting a BC for the sport. It just turns into a self fulfilling prophecy. All the big trainers run a BC, therefore they know how to train one well. So they tell their students to get BCs. So there is a huge preponderance of BC at the top level, so everyone thinks that if they want to succeed there, they need to get a BC, so the people who are serious about it, get a BC. So it stays all BC at the top levels. And on and on.

The kicker is, I really like border collies outside of agility as well as in, but I feel like if I ever get one, I'll be seen as just another person getting one for the sport.
Yes. And yes.

I have said both these so many times IRL that I sound like a broken record.
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  #1160  
Old 06-07-2013, 04:35 PM
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Laurelin Laurelin is offline
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While we're complaining about BC people can I just say if I get one more comment about how papillons are 'like little BCs' I will scream. Lol. It seems like every compliment I get has to mention border collies and how my breed is like a toy version. Papillons are awesome because theyre papillons. And papillons in themselves are biddable and fun and many times drivey dogs. Border collies have nothing to do with it.
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