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  #101  
Old 02-27-2012, 09:46 PM
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When you're just starting with two poles then can click and throw as they commit/enter. There's...two poles.

As you add poles, you throw as they are exiting which is why it's important to throw consistently down the pole line. You don't want them slowing or turning to look...you want them already knowing where that fantastic object of their deepest desire is going to appear, and driving for it. I don't use the clicker much at all after the two pole stage. "Scalpel", and all that.

Later when proofing you can throw while they are in the poles to validate their understanding of the Task, the whole task, from start to end. But that's later.
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  #102  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:07 PM
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Yep! Ditto what everyone has said about 2x2. It's hard getting the timing down, and as we got up to more poles there were definitely a couple of times where I rewarded when I shouldn't have, but you get the hang of it quickly. Here's a video I did of Kimma once she had gotten the hang of 2 poles a bit and we were working on more entries:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZo1fkgcHpg

I'm throwing food each time for her and at this point, rewarding her for coming back to me as well (we were having recall issues so every chance I got to reward her for coming to me was taken!).
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  #103  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:25 PM
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Also, never throw the food reward far beyond the last poles, throw over handed (that makes the dogs look up and back, a no/no) and throwing to the reward line is critical with either food or toy/tug. Method also calls for progressing quickly, most dogs will be doing 4 poles inline within 4 or 5 days Once you get 4 poles, the rest is easy-peasy.
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  #104  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adojrts View Post
Also, never throw the food reward far beyond the last poles, throw over handed (that makes the dogs look up and back, a no/no) and throwing to the reward line is critical with either food or toy/tug. Method also calls for progressing quickly, most dogs will be doing 4 poles inline within 4 or 5 days Once you get 4 poles, the rest is easy-peasy.
Yep. One of the worst mistakes I made was hanging on to 6 poles for too long.
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  #105  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:37 PM
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Oh I didn't know it progressed that quickly! How long should I be working on it with him a day then? I just did a quick five minute session with him today but it seems like maybe it could be longer?
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  #106  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:56 PM
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This thread makes me want to sign Frodo up for a foundations course SO bad!
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  #107  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samsonyte! View Post
Oh I didn't know it progressed that quickly! How long should I be working on it with him a day then? I just did a quick five minute session with him today but it seems like maybe it could be longer?
I wouldn't make the sessions longer, but you could do more than one session per day. And like others have said, reward delivery is important in this method....you want the dog to be driving ahead, not looking back at you waiting for a throw, but at the same time, you don't want to place the reward as a lure.....lol, clear yet?
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  #108  
Old 02-28-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samsonyte! View Post
Oh I didn't know it progressed that quickly! How long should I be working on it with him a day then? I just did a quick five minute session with him today but it seems like maybe it could be longer?
2x2 is 12 poles in 12 days, the average dog owner (with an understanding of the method) takes a bit longer, typcially 3-4 wks.

General rule of thumb is 3 sessions per day, for a MAX of 3-4 mins long.

The owner also has to know what DASH means; Desire, Accuracy, Speed, Habitat.

I am going to give a word of warning here, the 2x2 method is wonderful but like any other method it will fail if not trained correctly with a full understanding of the method and how to progress. The dogs that progress the best are the ones that already KNOW how to free shape. Otherwise it is stressful for them and they don't understand. The entire method is based upon a dog understanding that failures are ok and to try again, therefore they don't stress or give up. It is also critical that the hanlder/owner working a free shaping session is to NOT make those little signs of disappointment, that will shut a dog down in a heartbeat or at the very least demotivates a dog.
It is strongly recommended that you teach your dog to free shape first and have your dog confident in that before tackling the 2x2 method (that comes from SG and the DVD).

Best plan would be for you to get the DVD or get to a trainer that fully understands the method.
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  #109  
Old 02-28-2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adojrts View Post
The dogs that progress the best are the ones that already KNOW how to free shape. Otherwise it is stressful for them and they don't understand. The entire method is based upon a dog understanding that failures are ok and to try again, therefore they don't stress or give up. It is also critical that the hanlder/owner working a free shaping session is to NOT make those little signs of disappointment, that will shut a dog down in a heartbeat or at the very least demotivates a dog.
I totally agree, what would you recommend for a dog that is uncomfortable with shaping and does much better with manipulation?
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  #110  
Old 02-28-2012, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I totally agree, what would you recommend for a dog that is uncomfortable with shaping and does much better with manipulation?
That's where the chute/wire method comes in handy. The dog will eventually build the muscle memory and skills that way with very little shaping involved.

I've taught a 2x2 class for close to a year now and Ado is right. The other thing handlers need to be aware of is that you CANNOT help the dog. Once you start helping the dog by luring (whether with a treat, your hand or your body) they will lose the independence that we are trying to gain with 2x2's. I struggle the most teaching people who have no understanding of shaping. We will eventually get their dogs weaving, but it's much, much more stressful for all involved.
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