Dog Site - Dog Stuff
Dog Forum | Dog Pictures

Go Back   Chazhound Dog Forum > Dog Discussions and Dog Talk Forums > The Dog Breeds


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 12-18-2011, 05:51 PM
Danefied's Avatar
Danefied Danefied is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Southeast
Posts: 1,722
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat09Tails View Post
Kids don't know what they are doing. That's why I am pretty specific about what kind of experience I would want for a kid showing a dog. It's up to you to decide how much involvement you should have in this 4H project. IMO the kid should be doing the grand majority of training, handling, and day to day care under the at very minimum loose supervision of an adult. It doesn't mean mistakes won't happen.

Just yesterday my niece who is 8 who is very careful with little dogs and babies jumped over the couch corner and stepped on the cocker spaniel HARD. Yelp! Lecture for the little girl about horseplay and watching where you are going in the house, and a cocker spaniel who was a little confused on what just happened but got over it. If it had been a papillon I would likely have been at the vet, very likely with a broken dog that would have possibly cost thousands to repair and possibly years to repair mentally with the dog. For the spaniel, she was over it in about ten minutes.

Kids do stupid stuff sometimes in moments that seem random. I just think you're setting yourself and the dog up for a real headache to pick a little dog just because you think your kid would be great with dogs. Just because you're dog savvy doesn't mean your kid is and wont make a mistake - just hopefully you set your kids and pets up so their mistakes won't be potentially fatal or obscenely costly.
This is really true. There's a reason that the traditionally kid friendly breeds are not in the toy group.
__________________
"We become better trainers by refusing to swallow uncritically what is tossed to us as truth,
by developing our powers of empathy and observation,
and by searching for better ways to teach and educate the dogs we love."
~Suzanne Clothier
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 12-18-2011, 06:29 PM
stafinois's Avatar
stafinois stafinois is offline
Professional Nerd
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mayberry
Posts: 1,610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat09Tails View Post
You're being a little over dramatic.... Just wee bit...

And, you aren't? In my experience, I don't think little dogs get creamed by kids nearly as often as you imply is going to happen. I have known lots and lots of little dogs personally and professionally that live with small children. In fact when I think back to dogs that we did have to do surgery on for broken limbs, I don't remember any that weren't in adult only homes.


Quote:
IMO a papillon isn't it, imo a beagle, a teckel, a cocker, or even a shiba would be a better choice for a smaller size dog with a kid in mind. I just don't think it's a great idea because that small isn't really THAT necessary. There are a ton of slightly larger options that are just as trainable, just as fun, and not as traumatically easily breakable. But hey, do what you want - this one disagreeing voice on the internet isn't going to stop you.

Yes, Beagles, Dachshunds bred for blood tracking, and Shibas are exactly what come to mind when I think "competitive obedience." There are a few who do well, sure, but I think we can all admit that they aren't the norm. I think the chances of us not breaking a small dog is a lot higher than finding a biddable dog with good work ethic in those breeds. A Cocker, maybe. But, like one of the reasons that I shy away from Papillons, they have too much hair.

I am confidant that a small dog would survive our family now, and six years from now she will be even more mature and reasonable. I think that we will be fine. It's not even remotely set in stone anyway. This is just musing.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:34 PM
stafinois's Avatar
stafinois stafinois is offline
Professional Nerd
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mayberry
Posts: 1,610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danefied View Post
This is really true. There's a reason that the traditionally kid friendly breeds are not in the toy group.

Working bred Malinois are also not known for being excellent choices for homes with children, yet somehow we managed to keep him from eating the baby for 3.5 years.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 12-18-2011, 08:17 PM
~Tucker&Me~ ~Tucker&Me~ is offline
and Spy.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: B.C.
Posts: 4,940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stafinois View Post
Working bred Malinois are also not known for being excellent choices for homes with children, yet somehow we managed to keep him from eating the baby for 3.5 years.
Well, you asked for opinions, you are getting them... People are going to disagree, it happens.

Anyway, I tend to agree with the people saying avoid a tiny, fine-boned dog. You can argue all you want about it not happening and fair enough if you decide to go that route, I just personally don't think it is worth the risk and that a slightly larger, thicker dog is better suited to the job. Plus, being able to rough-house and play with the dog is half the fun! A slightly larger dog is just that much hardier and more 'rough and tumble' friendly for the kids.

I like the suggestion of miniature poodle or the right shelter mutt. In this case, I would also look more into getting a young adult dog rather than a pup
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryMan View Post
I think u need some angry school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renee750il View Post
That's what we do here. We're emotionally invested in each other and each other's dogs, the joys and the sorrows.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 12-18-2011, 08:26 PM
~Tucker&Me~ ~Tucker&Me~ is offline
and Spy.
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: B.C.
Posts: 4,940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekka View Post
Actually around here I have had some great cattle dog/kid combos. 4Hers too (though 4-H here isn't as 'big' as it is in the states) The cattle dogs were combo confo/herding dogs vs strictly sport/herding lines. That might make a difference. They were very focused dogs, much like BC only smaller and easier for the kids to handle.
That's interesting, maybe there is a specific breeder in your area that is producing dogs who are a little different from the standard ACD. All of the ones I have met and interacted with out here would be, imo, highly unsuitable for all but the most dog savvy teenagers (I don't think a kid could handle them). They are much, much edgier than BC's and most I have seen were similar size wise, if not a bit 'thicker'. I would imagine a typical BC would be much better suited than a typical ACD.

Anyway, not to rain on that parade but from my personal experience over here with the breed, they would make unsuitable kid's dogs.

ETA: Oh and *if* the OP was to go the cattle dog route, I would highly recommend going for an adult so you could see exactly what you were getting into and make sure the dog was relatively bomb-proof and appropriate for the situation.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryMan View Post
I think u need some angry school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renee750il View Post
That's what we do here. We're emotionally invested in each other and each other's dogs, the joys and the sorrows.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 12-18-2011, 08:39 PM
stafinois's Avatar
stafinois stafinois is offline
Professional Nerd
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mayberry
Posts: 1,610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Tucker&Me~ View Post
ETA: Oh and *if* the OP was to go the cattle dog route, I would highly recommend going for an adult so you could see exactly what you were getting into and make sure the dog was relatively bomb-proof and appropriate for the situation.

If I was looking for an ACD, I would go to a breeder that health tests and has had dogs that have done well in competitive obedience and with junior handlers. Hillhaven dogs come to mind. But, I'm not looking for an ACD at this point.

Believe it or not, I actually have experience successfully obtaining, training, and handling dogs
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 12-18-2011, 08:48 PM
Georgygirl's Avatar
Georgygirl Georgygirl is offline
Uffda!
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,559
Default

Bostons can be great with kids given the proper training and I think would fit your needs well. My Joey is a celebrity among my mother's daycare kids. He even helped one little boy get over his fear of dogs. He lets them pet him and play with his toys. He'll do all his tricks for them and they give him cheerios for rewards. They will take him for walks and he's the perfect gentleman on a leash. Bostons really are a fun little breed.
__________________
~Jordan, Joey, Lucy and Walter

"The great secret, Eliza, is not having bad manners or good manners or any other particular sort of manners, but having the same manner for all human souls: in short, behaving as if you were in Heaven, where there are no third-class carriages, and one soul is as good as another." George Bernard Shaw Pygmalion
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 12-18-2011, 09:24 PM
Dekka's Avatar
Dekka Dekka is offline
Just try me..
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ontario
Posts: 19,235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Tucker&Me~ View Post
That's interesting, maybe there is a specific breeder in your area that is producing dogs who are a little different from the standard ACD. All of the ones I have met and interacted with out here would be, imo, highly unsuitable for all but the most dog savvy teenagers (I don't think a kid could handle them). They are much, much edgier than BC's and most I have seen were similar size wise, if not a bit 'thicker'. I would imagine a typical BC would be much better suited than a typical ACD.

Anyway, not to rain on that parade but from my personal experience over here with the breed, they would make unsuitable kid's dogs.

ETA: Oh and *if* the OP was to go the cattle dog route, I would highly recommend going for an adult so you could see exactly what you were getting into and make sure the dog was relatively bomb-proof and appropriate for the situation.
Just to play devils advocate.. people say all sorts of things about JRTs... BUT loads of kids, even little kids do the junior handling with JRTs. They are a lot of dog too, yes they are smaller. But I have seen 4 year olds in the ring with well trained JRTs. Darien has been handling Kaiden since he was 5 and ran AAC juniors with Kaiden when he was 6. No I wouldnt' have handed him Dekka to handle on a show ground. But he was fine with Kaiden.

Darien would have very little trouble with an ACD even an edgy one. Sport is a lot of dog, and somewhat reactive too. He is your typically badly bred BC with loads of drive, little impulse control, bad social skills and insecurity. However Darien handles him beautifully and understands his dog. (Darien is now 11) I think people don't credit kids enough. A kid from a dog savvy home is likely better equipped to handle a difficult dog (not that I think they should) that the average person. On that note I don't see an issue with a toy breed. Darien is careful and good with puppies and small dogs. Dog savvy parents usually raise dog savvy kids.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 12-18-2011, 10:30 PM
Aleron's Avatar
Aleron Aleron is offline
Top Dog
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 2,270
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat09Tails View Post
My ex had brussels - I really wouldn't suggest bostons or papillons for kids. If I can make a suggestion it would be to get a working line teckel - it'll appeal to your more working dog nature and be an easily sturdy 4Hable dog.
We've had Paps, Chi's, shih tzus, toy Poodles and Yorkies in 4H and none have been broken by the kids. I see Paps in the Junior ring at shows all the time too. Look at all these kids with Paps!



This thread has an odd tone of "the sky is falling" concerning dogs and kids. IME it isn't only possible for dogs and kids to get along but it happens all the time. Even dogs who have a less than ideal temperament can do well in 4H or Juniors. Most 4H kids take their family dog, which has not been selected or raised as potential sport dogs. And if the kids are into it, the dogs generally do just fine with some work (some more than others LOL). The biggest issues I have had with dogs and kids in 4H has been the dog is too bonded the parents to work for the child or the dog is so low drive or so easily stressed from being out and about that they won't do anything. Both of those issues can be overcome with training, management and time in most dogs if the families are interested.

Not everything is worst case scenario Aimee is obviously experienced and knowledgeable, why would anyone assume she'll get a dog which is poorly suited for her family?
__________________
Nikki & the Herding Breed Variety Pack
Visit Us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Alerondogs
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 12-18-2011, 11:16 PM
Kat09Tails's Avatar
Kat09Tails Kat09Tails is offline
*Now with Snark*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Upper Left hand corner, USA
Posts: 3,336
Default

Stafi asked an opinion and I gave it. Feel free to do or not do whatever you wish with it. I stick by the opinion.

It's really not about the sky is falling to me it's like someone saying they want to herd sheep and someone recommending a basset hound. We have breeds far more suited to the span of hypothetical situations related to herding so why not go with one of those? Not that a basset hound somewhere couldn't herd sheep, just like a bulldog somewhere could be a water retriever, just like a pekinese somewhere probably could do agility-I just don't recommend any of those breeds for those purposes because there are far better choices available for the purpose in mind IMO.

Just like I don't recommend a papillon with a kid as a primary care giver or handler. To me it's not that it can't be done, I just feel that it shouldn't be done for probably 95% of the kids I see throughout the week. Everyone who tells me their kid is special and raised right - still has a kid, who will behave like a kid from time to time.

So for further reference
From Forevr papillons
Quote:
Question: I would like to buy a Pap for my family. Are they especially good around kids?

Answer: Extra care should be taken and rules should be established when Papillons live with young children. They do make great family dogs however they are a small breed. Paps and can be injured, (in some cases fatally) and bones can be broken with rough treatment or when suddenly dropped. Some breeders will not sell a Papillon to families with small children in the household.
From the papillon club of america
Quote:
Papillons and Kids

Small dog and small child, what could be cuter, right? Except the reality is that it rarely works out. Papillons are typically not a good choice for a household with very small children, or older children who want to be able to "roughhouse" with a dog, because of their small size. This breed also tends to have pretty high self-esteem; a Papillon will protect itself if it feels threatened or mistreated. While your kids are definitely angels and would never mistreat any animal, any home with a dog and children requires lots of extra commitment and constant supervision by the adults in the household to ensure that everyone treats each other responsibly. We find that when people add a Papillon to a household with children, the parents usually have a dog and have kids, but the kids don't have a dog. Please consider this if you've found our page while searching for a child's pet or a family pet.
From the papillon (butterfly dog) club UK:
Quote:
In some circumstances Papillons are not an ideal breed to have with very young children or to mix with larger dogs, there are of course exceptions but accidents can and do happen and a small fine boned breed does not mix well with boisterous children or large dogs.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:57 PM.


1997-2013 Chazhound Dog Site