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  #111  
Old 11-26-2011, 12:29 PM
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Is it possible you have mixed up LGD and estate guardians with personal protection dogs?

Breeds primarily used for *real* livestock guarding are *not* reliant and obsessively connected to their humans, they need to be independent thinkers capable of working alone and not traumatized by minimal human interaction.

Personal protection dogs (which is the most humorously abused term) however are expected to rely on ques and *must* be social. What good is a protection dog that must be crated when you have strangers about?

My previous boss bred, trained, and sold LGD and the like for estate guardians and security work. These dogs worked ship yards, estates, and other large rather high security areas and were expected to be not only content but excel at solo and canine companion living. Often kenneled during the day, they were released at night and knew their jobs and it was to discourage and take down any potential perimeter violation.

They were very good, much better than the Malinois and dobes, but I'm totally seeing the LGD used interchangeably with PP, which ime is incorrect.
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  #112  
Old 11-26-2011, 04:23 PM
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I would just like to point out that I don't necessarily think a breeder that uses kennels for pup raising a "bad breeder," just a breeder that I likely would not buy from.
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  #113  
Old 11-26-2011, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
Is it possible you have mixed up LGD and estate guardians with personal protection dogs?

Breeds primarily used for *real* livestock guarding are *not* reliant and obsessively connected to their humans, they need to be independent thinkers capable of working alone and not traumatized by minimal human interaction.

Personal protection dogs (which is the most humorously abused term) however are expected to rely on ques and *must* be social. What good is a protection dog that must be crated when you have strangers about?

My previous boss bred, trained, and sold LGD and the like for estate guardians and security work. These dogs worked ship yards, estates, and other large rather high security areas and were expected to be not only content but excel at solo and canine companion living. Often kenneled during the day, they were released at night and knew their jobs and it was to discourage and take down any potential perimeter violation.

They were very good, much better than the Malinois and dobes, but I'm totally seeing the LGD used interchangeably with PP, which ime is incorrect.
(Speaking from just my limited experience) LGs will guard their "pack". Raised around people, their pack is their human family. Raised around livestock, their pack is the livestock. It's all the same instinct, so having your dog outside guarding livestock doesn't rob it of its genetic ability to guard humans. If they are born with the instinct, the instinct stays, so the pups they breed (since this IS on the subject of breeding) will be no less apt to guard human beings than if that had been their parents job as well.

In other words, if you want to buy an LG pup to be a guardian for yourself, you're just as likely to get a good one from an outside dog guarding something other than people as from one who's guarding people. A good LG is a good LG and will guard whatever you make its "pack".

Like I (and someone else) mentioned before, PP dogs aren't worth much. They look tough in trials, but in real situations a PP dog is about as useful as an unloaded gun; threatening but ineffective.
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  #114  
Old 11-26-2011, 09:07 PM
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I completely disagree on the last point. I have sport trained protection dogs and I struggle to make them less serious about day-to-day interactions.

I also know that there are those that exist which are purely sporty.

I also think more "PP" dogs are joke. Meaning, those dogs that are in-home-day-to-day-no-testing-no-training PP dogs, not those trained and tested in competition venues. Most people haven't a clue what really goes into building, conditioning, and controlling a real protection dog.

Plus "PP" sounds stupid. LOL
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  #115  
Old 11-26-2011, 10:05 PM
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LGD can and do transfer their guarding from livestock to person; and in a litter there are dogs that are going to be more suited to the totally autonomous lifestyle of living outside with the livestock; and then there will be more people oriented pups that can comfortably live in the house.

AS for this;
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country and see where they keep their dogs. Their Kangals, CAOs, and other guardian molossers. It's not in the house. Their dogs are outside. Their dogs are still good guardians, and they're out there doing a job.
Russians and other Eastern and Central European countries do indeed keep their guardian dogs in the house AND in the yard; very fenced in compound-type yards to be precise; but they have house dogs and yard dogs. South Africa does the same thing. Boerboels in the house guarding the family, sometimes a dog to a room or housing section, a pack of Boerboels running the compound guarding the house. Yes dogs do get to be left in yurts and yes dogs do get to be kept in village homes; especially if women and children are left behind. They are considered dual purpose dogs; livestock and family guards and they guard from both inside and outside.
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  #116  
Old 11-26-2011, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by pitbullpony View Post
Russians and other Eastern and Central European countries do indeed keep their guardian dogs in the house AND in the yard; very fenced in compound-type yards to be precise; but they have house dogs and yard dogs. South Africa does the same thing. Boerboels in the house guarding the family, sometimes a dog to a room or housing section, a pack of Boerboels running the compound guarding the house. Yes dogs do get to be left in yurts and yes dogs do get to be kept in village homes; especially if women and children are left behind. They are considered dual purpose dogs; livestock and family guards and they guard from both inside and outside.
Alright, thanks for correcting me on that. Gotta say, I've never seen a house Kangal, but I've never been to Turkey so what do I know?
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  #117  
Old 11-27-2011, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I also think more "PP" dogs are joke. Meaning, those dogs that are in-home-day-to-day-no-testing-no-training PP dogs, not those trained and tested in competition venues. Most people haven't a clue what really goes into building, conditioning, and controlling a real protection dog.
There are sooo many shady PP trainers out there too. But I certainly would say properly trained with ongoing training and testing PP dogs are "ineffective". While there are police dogs out there who shouldn't be, police dogs on the whole have not proven to be "ineffective".
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  #118  
Old 11-27-2011, 02:48 PM
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@Cliff; not sure that there are in-house Kangals typically; that is one huge-ass dog. Good guy to talk to would be Andrew J of Olympic dogs; he's an interesting dude; he went over there to get his boy. http://www.olympicdogs.net/ Love what he's doing with natural rearing/whelping/raising of pups and how he runs his dogs.
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  #119  
Old 11-27-2011, 03:03 PM
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There are sooo many shady PP trainers out there too. But I certainly would say properly trained with ongoing training and testing PP dogs are "ineffective". While there are police dogs out there who shouldn't be, police dogs on the whole have not proven to be "ineffective".
I may not be clear, I have all the faith in the world in ongoing training, testing protection dogs. I have far less faith in a dog that gas no training, no testing, and an expection that they just always know exactly what to do.

Majority speaks to training and effectiveness.
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  #120  
Old 11-27-2011, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by pitbullpony View Post
@Cliff; not sure that there are in-house Kangals typically; that is one huge-ass dog. Good guy to talk to would be Andrew J of Olympic dogs; he's an interesting dude; he went over there to get his boy. http://www.olympicdogs.net/ Love what he's doing with natural rearing/whelping/raising of pups and how he runs his dogs.
Oh thanks for posting that link. I loved reading all the info he had to offer.
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