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  #101  
Old 11-25-2011, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Romy View Post
If a dog is trained for protection vs. born naturally protective (like any LGD breed) presumably the training will take care of any inappropriate aggression on walks.

I'm not saying dogs involved in bite sports and german shepherds aren't protective and don't make good guard dogs. Just that because a dog is good at bite sports doesn't mean it will guard/protect. We've had some pretty epic threads on Chaz on the subject, with examples of PP titled mal bitches who let someone break into their house and steal all their puppies, and other sport titled dogs who stood aside as their owner had the "crap beat out of them" in mock, outside of trial scenarios designed to test whether the dog would be any use in a real life assault. Along with dogs who completely failed as candidates because of a lack of nerve coming to the rescue in real life. My life was saved by my aunts Sch reject shepherd. The same dog that snarlyfaced at the prowler and scared him away peed herself when she saw the sheriff get out of his car.

If I was getting a LGD as a companion and not just to toss out with the sheep as predator protection, I'd definitely want a puppy that had extensive socialization with humans. It's because they are so independent and suspicious of strangers that a correct LGD needs that extra knowledge in what is normal non-threatening human behavior, and what is something to be concerned about. Otherwise the dog becomes a liability that cannot function in modern society. I plan to get a kuvasz eventually. We will be looking for one raised with a lot of human contact, and I plan to socialize the puppy the same way I raised my service dog (100 friendly strangers before 15 weeks).
I'm sure if you were getting a pet guardian breed, you'd want it to be friendly with strangers, which is why I don't understand wanting a pet LGD, because bred right it will not be friendly with strangers. This is also why I would never get an American Kangal or CAO, because in America we water them down and want them to be stranger-friendly pets. I'm hoping to get a Kangal or CAO to guard my animals, and it will have been outside, and when it gets here it will be outside; and I hope to god it is willing to "eat someone for looking at it wrong" because otherwise I'll have to cull it, because a friendly dog won't keep my APBTs from being stolen.
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  #102  
Old 11-25-2011, 06:18 PM
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Actually, a well bred, sound example of any of those breeds won't "eat someone for looking at them wrong." They will use exactly as much force as is necessary to stop the problem, whether it's as simple as raising a lip or rumbling in the chest to taking a persistent threat down to the ground and subduing it -- to whatever degree necessary.

A sound dog isn't a savage dog.
All I'm saying is, if somebody is climbing into my yard or stealing my chickens, I want a dog that will teach him a lesson, not snarl at him and hope he goes away.
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  #103  
Old 11-25-2011, 06:25 PM
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All I'm saying is, if somebody is climbing into my yard or stealing my chickens, I want a dog that will teach him a lesson, not snarl at him and hope he goes away.
I want a dog that won't maim/kill someone without giving them a chance to repent of their wicked ways. For one, if Chicken Thief survived there's a good chance my dog would end up confiscated and dead and I'd be paying out the nose for his medical bills. If he was dead and had litigious family? Don't wanna go there...
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  #104  
Old 11-25-2011, 06:34 PM
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I'm sure if you were getting a pet guardian breed, you'd want it to be friendly with strangers, which is why I don't understand wanting a pet LGD, because bred right it will not be friendly with strangers. This is also why I would never get an American Kangal or CAO, because in America we water them down and want them to be stranger-friendly pets. I'm hoping to get a Kangal or CAO to guard my animals, and it will have been outside, and when it gets here it will be outside; and I hope to god it is willing to "eat someone for looking at it wrong" because otherwise I'll have to cull it, because a friendly dog won't keep my APBTs from being stolen.
I never said I'd want a friendly LGD. I want one that understands eye contact from a stranger on a walk outside its territory does not constitute a threat that needs neutralizing with deadly force. They learn that through socialization. If you're never going to take your dog off the property for any reason then it's not necessary. Though I'd still argue it would be handy in the event your dog is injured and needs a trip to the e-vet. A correct LGD isn't going to be ruined by socialization. They're going to be less of a liability, and make better decisions about who is and isn't a threat. Putting a dog out and asking him to decide who should and shouldn't be bitten without giving any guidance or life experience is asking a lot. If you have good fences and no pesky neighbor kids who hit balls into your yard it's not really an issue though.
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  #105  
Old 11-25-2011, 06:36 PM
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There's a certain amount of tolerance that is a good thing to have if you are going to have your LGD with you in public.

Like with Kharma. She knows how to be a total diva when she's at the store and enjoys being worshiped. However . . . if you touch the door handle to the office without being invited, or if someone comes in who just gives her a bad vibe she lets you know about it. Back away from the door and you're fine. She's been given enough experience out in public, meeting people and learning the difference between threatening and safe behavior, normal and "off" human behavior and just being able to pick up a vibe -- even from a distance -- that she's 1000% reliable as a guardian without me having to worry about her doing something that will make me have to get her out of town in a hurry.

She is also a completely different dog at home, or in the car. She put the back bedroom window out going after a prowler. Touch the car and she explodes. Walk too close to it and she'll let you know you're too close. Hang around the car area and she will watch you, every time she sees you, even if it's six months later. Oh, and don't walk by wearing a hoodie pulled over your head and/or slouched down pants, lol. She HATES that.

That's why I like having an ultra-intelligent guardian breed that has the capacity to think on their own and the ability to make good decisions without getting carried away by the excitement of the engagement. She can be with me out in public, when I'm out at night, wherever I go. Kharma enjoys her "work," but her brain doesn't fall out when her jaws open and no one has ever pushed their luck. THAT is what I want to see in a guardian.

Now, if I could just convince her to stop using my cell phone . . .
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  #106  
Old 11-25-2011, 07:49 PM
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The "without worrying that they will eat someone for looking at them wrong" part of her post made me assume she meant breeds TRAINED in protection like Sheps and Dobes. Most true guardian breeds (Fila, Kangal, CAO, Boerboel) will "eat someone for looking at them wrong" as they well should; any one that wouldn't isn't a good example of the breed as they should hate anyone they don't know, period. And these dogs are typically kept outside (with the exception of the Fila, which I don't know about) so naturally they should be able to be kept in a kennel or tie out.
I apologize that my post was not very clear. It was late and I was tired, and I should have gone to bed instead of attempting to write a post at that hour.

I was not referring to GSD, Doberman, Malinois, or breeds like that. I was referring to Fila, Boerboel, Presa Canario, Cane Corso and the like. As others have already stated your guardian breed can be properly socialized and still be a fine guard dog. In today's society we need to have well-behaved, safe dogs. If you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, fine, have your aggressive man-eating dog. But most people don't live that way anymore, and I don't want these breeds being banned and slaughtered by BSL because people thing they should be indiscriminately aggressive.

I belong to a Presa Canario forum and there are plenty of people on there who own very impressive Presa that are trained in PP and they are also able to take their dogs into public safely. It is quite encouraged on that forum to train and socialize your dog thoroughly. (and if you think I don't have experience with these breeds, I have had an angry Fila roaring three inches from my face. I know what powerful breeds these are).

I do want to see that the dogs aren't primarily kept in kennels or on tie outs. How can a guardian breed protect you if its chained in the yard? Its not able to protect you, it's just a living alarm. I am not saying that people who use kennels or chainspots are bad owners, I don't think that at all. But guardian breeds will literally make themselves sick over being too lonely.

I volunteer at a rescue shelter, and I can tell you from experience that the breeds who do the worst in a shelter situation are dobermans, pit bulls, and mastiffs because they crave so much attention from people. GSD tend to have some issues too, since they make themselves terribly anxious (and so many of them the rescue has had are reactive to other dogs).
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  #107  
Old 11-26-2011, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Romy View Post
I never said I'd want a friendly LGD. I want one that understands eye contact from a stranger on a walk outside its territory does not constitute a threat that needs neutralizing with deadly force. They learn that through socialization. If you're never going to take your dog off the property for any reason then it's not necessary. Though I'd still argue it would be handy in the event your dog is injured and needs a trip to the e-vet. A correct LGD isn't going to be ruined by socialization. They're going to be less of a liability, and make better decisions about who is and isn't a threat. Putting a dog out and asking him to decide who should and shouldn't be bitten without giving any guidance or life experience is asking a lot. If you have good fences and no pesky neighbor kids who hit balls into your yard it's not really an issue though.
I wouldn't socialize my guardian breed except with dogs because it has no need to be. I don't want a dog that will try to decide which stranger is a risk and which isn't, I want a dog that hates them all. Luckily for me, out here in the sticks of Alabama, our law says that if you step onto someone's posted property, and something happens to you, it's your fault. (With the exception of booby traps, for some reason...)

At the time when I own a livestock guardian (and I would never dream of owning one before unless it was a watered-down American version) I won't have any closeby neighbors. Right now our neighbors are nearby and I wouldn't risk having a truly hard guardian breed.
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  #108  
Old 11-26-2011, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Sweet72947 View Post
I apologize that my post was not very clear. It was late and I was tired, and I should have gone to bed instead of attempting to write a post at that hour.

I was not referring to GSD, Doberman, Malinois, or breeds like that. I was referring to Fila, Boerboel, Presa Canario, Cane Corso and the like. As others have already stated your guardian breed can be properly socialized and still be a fine guard dog. In today's society we need to have well-behaved, safe dogs. If you live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, fine, have your aggressive man-eating dog. But most people don't live that way anymore, and I don't want these breeds being banned and slaughtered by BSL because people thing they should be indiscriminately aggressive.

I belong to a Presa Canario forum and there are plenty of people on there who own very impressive Presa that are trained in PP and they are also able to take their dogs into public safely. It is quite encouraged on that forum to train and socialize your dog thoroughly. (and if you think I don't have experience with these breeds, I have had an angry Fila roaring three inches from my face. I know what powerful breeds these are).

I do want to see that the dogs aren't primarily kept in kennels or on tie outs. How can a guardian breed protect you if its chained in the yard? Its not able to protect you, it's just a living alarm. I am not saying that people who use kennels or chainspots are bad owners, I don't think that at all. But guardian breeds will literally make themselves sick over being too lonely.

I volunteer at a rescue shelter, and I can tell you from experience that the breeds who do the worst in a shelter situation are dobermans, pit bulls, and mastiffs because they crave so much attention from people. GSD tend to have some issues too, since they make themselves terribly anxious (and so many of them the rescue has had are reactive to other dogs).
Dogs trained in PP are not only expected to be good with nonthreatening strangers, most are useless in a REAL situation. So I would be very suspicious of anyone who claimed to have a PP trained dog, who wasn't well behaved around strangers in public. But there's a good chance that the dog isn't worth a flying flip as far as actually guarding a person.

I don't know much about Fila, Presas, and Corsos, but I know most BBs are kept outside. How are they meant to protect livestock if they are indoors?
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  #109  
Old 11-26-2011, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by cliffdog View Post
Dogs trained in PP are not only expected to be good with nonthreatening strangers, most are useless in a REAL situation. So I would be very suspicious of anyone who claimed to have a PP trained dog, who wasn't well behaved around strangers in public. But there's a good chance that the dog isn't worth a flying flip as far as actually guarding a person.

I don't know much about Fila, Presas, and Corsos, but I know most BBs are kept outside. How are they meant to protect livestock if they are indoors?
Not everybody has outdoor stock? My great uncle raised chinchillas in the 40s. They were indoors, and he had a mastiff he kept inside to stop chinchilla thieves. People also use LGDs as family guardians since they're overall really good at guarding and most people don't live outside or keep their valuables out on the lawn.

I was pretty glad my dogs are indoor dogs last week when that prowler tried to get in. One thing criminals will look for is dogs outside, because if a guard dog is outside generally the inside will be free and clear if they can find a way around it.
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  #110  
Old 11-26-2011, 02:48 AM
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Not everybody has outdoor stock? My great uncle raised chinchillas in the 40s. They were indoors, and he had a mastiff he kept inside to stop chinchilla thieves. People also use LGDs as family guardians since they're overall really good at guarding and most people don't live outside or keep their valuables out on the lawn.

I was pretty glad my dogs are indoor dogs last week when that prowler tried to get in. One thing criminals will look for is dogs outside, because if a guard dog is outside generally the inside will be free and clear if they can find a way around it.
I know that, I'm just saying that you can't discount a breeder of a livestock guardian just because they keep their dogs outside, many outside dogs have a job to do, such as the one they were bred for. And contrary to popular belief, the dogs won't fall to pieces if they're kept outside; they get used to it. It's not hectic like a shelter environment. They have a owner who provides exercise and stimulation and affection, and they don't lose their instinct to guard that owner, either.

Look to any "less developed" (I hate to use that term, but I can't think of another) country and see where they keep their dogs. Their Kangals, CAOs, and other guardian molossers. It's not in the house. Their dogs are outside. Their dogs are still good guardians, and they're out there doing a job.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that you should keep your LG outside; keep your dog where you want it, where it does the most good in your situation. I'm just saying that people who DO aren't bad breeders.
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