Breeding out DA

[elegy]

Originally Posted by Linds

I'll tell you though, finding a herding breed that still works and has a low probability of being nervy AND not dog aggressive/selective is not as easy of task as one might think.

Steve's as much of a jerk with other dogs as my bullies, though he has far more focus while working, which makes a huge difference. His breeder has dogs who cannot go out together. His dad was placed because he absolutely could not get along with the other intact males in the house. I'm willing to put up with it in him just as I'm willing to put up with it in my bulldogs because of everything else they bring to the table. But I still cross my fingers and try to be as proactive as possible when it comes to preventing issues between dogs, because crate and rotate just doesn't sound like that much fun.

[mrose_s]

The in house DA is the reason I probably won't have another cattle dog again unless I rescue an adult. Thats not something I really want to handle again, atleast not for a long while. I can handle seperating dogs when I'm not around, I can handle a dog that doesn't like other dogs in its face, but I don't want dogs that can't be out together at home when I'm around.

Dog tolerance is a big reason (probably the main reason) why i wanted a BC over a kelpie this time. Quinn doesn't care much for other dogs, she's very polite but a rude dog scares her and a dog that won't just greet and then back off gets an air snap if its not readin the "leave me alone" signals. I love her like this but I wish she was more confident.

[Whisper]

I don't see the point of trying to breed out DA.
It would be a very intricate process. Breeding two non-DA dogs does not guarantee that you'd end up with non-DA pups, and if only breeding with the absence of DA in mind, you'd likely end up with dogs that lack certain breed qualities or have additional ones not typically associated with the breed.
Why would you even want to? To make it easier on the owners? While I understand some frustration (I had a same-sex aggressive Rottweiler bitch and it was tiring to constantly make sure there were no fights), if someone truly can't stand DA in their typically DA breed, they've got the wrong one. Or to decrease accidents with ignorant owners who can't handle it? I despise the thought of trying to alter the dogs when the people are at fault.

[cliffdog]

Originally Posted by Whisper

I don't see the point of trying to breed out DA.
It would be a very intricate process. Breeding two non-DA dogs does not guarantee that you'd end up with non-DA pups, and if only breeding with the absence of DA in mind, you'd likely end up with dogs that lack certain breed qualities or have additional ones not typically associated with the breed.
Why would you even want to? To make it easier on the owners? While I understand some frustration (I had a same-sex aggressive Rottweiler bitch and it was tiring to constantly make sure there were no fights), if someone truly can't stand DA in their typically DA breed, they've got the wrong one. Or to decrease accidents with ignorant owners who can't handle it? I despise the thought of trying to alter the dogs when the people are at fault.

Well put. That is exactly what I have been trying to say, but I'm not much of a wordsmith!

[SpicyBulldog]

I would say not a good idea.

A big reason would be a drastic decrease in the (breeding) population which would cause a very limited gene pool. I believe the majority of APBT are DA. You have other considerations of what is important. Working ability, drive, health, structure, temperament. . . . once you elimate the DA dogs it'd be further reduced by those reason.

You also may end up with unforeseen and unwanted changes. Which happens when you try to do away with a trait. Even when done for a good cause like eliminating a health issueit could cause problems. Sometimes focusing on removing one health problem causes another to be more common.

Traits can be genetically linked, at this time we have no idea how. So without more knowledge on the genome and genetic engineering Id say no its not possible nor is it a good idea to attempt.

What would be the reason. . . Its not terrible to deal with. If people cant handle a breed then find one you can. I dont think its good to attempt to change a breed just so the average owner can get one. There is no need to breed DA out of the APBT, prey drive out of the Dogo Argentino, defense drive HA out of the Caucasian Ovcharka, ect

The reason why DA Labs are not game is because there are DIFFERENT TYPES of DA. Therefore different correlate to other traits. Genetic DA in APBT is differing than that of Labs. Just because DA is inhereted doesnt mean there is only one simple set of genes causing it. Behavioral traits are complex. Some DA is also caused by environment, though the dog has that outcome naturally. Being a dog period makes them have the possibility of aggresion in some situation. Its innate though what triggers it can vary from breed to breed and yes individuals.

[Mach1girl]

I only read the intro post, not all the replies. I own APBT, always have, always will. I see different types of DA in all the dogs I have (I have 7). Some exhibit DA to animals on the other side of the fence, but if the animals are brought inside the house, they do nothing. Some have high prey drive and will kill any animal regardless, in the yard. Not in my house. If I go to the vet, he comes to the car to see my dogs, DA in the office. Dog shows, they have to be kept on a very short lead, next to me. God forbid I watch any tv show with an animal. Nothing like a $1200 Plasma crashing to the floor!


All my dogs show signs of DA/or just plain animal aggression.

There is a difference in many I have seen. Many American Bullies do not exhibit DA, for many generations, then one or two will.

Prey drive is something as well, that has to do with DA I believe, and can be confused easily.

I do not believe DA can be bred out of a line that is known for exhibiting DA. I don believe it is a simple genetic disorder. In many breeds, especially the APBT it is part of what the breed actually is. It would be as hard to erase as say, their instinct to pant-

I do not believe that DA can be erased in a genetic pattern such as breeding out something like an overbite, kink tail, or skin disorder. It is not a recessive gene. It falls more on the "instinct" side of the breed in question.

DA can be controlled, but never ever trusted.

[Bahamutt99]

Good replies. Interesting topic.

I don't believe in selecting a dog based strictly on DA, and neither do I believe in breeding it out. Thinking in the larger picture here, DA is obviously not limited to one breed. You can get DA in a mongrel dog, and there you have no option of trying to "breed it out," it simply happens. I had three APBTs living together at one point, and they all ended up with some measure of DA, to the point where they could no longer run as a threesome. With me now are the two females, and they will hurt each other given a chance. But both are very worthy dogs and good examples of their breed.

I like to see DA controlled in most circumstances. Keep the dog on a leash, teach it to focus on you. But remember what you have at the same time. So many really nice dogs in my breed are DA. And many of the non-DA dogs... well... they're pretty, probably even big show winners, but to me they don't exemplify that bulldog type that is so intense that you have to write it with italics, bolding and red font color. Being DA means a dog needs more sensible handling, but IMO its really no more of an issue than other traits that come along with most breeds bred to perform.

A question to those who have said they value dog-tolerance and have deliberately chosen dog-tolerant breeds because of that. What would you do if a dog you selected from a dog-tolerant breed ended up being DA later in life? I'm genuinely curious. I wonder how many people with non-APBTs consider this possibility.

[Aleron]

Originally Posted by Bahamutt99

A question to those who have said they value dog-tolerance and have deliberately chosen dog-tolerant breeds because of that. What would you do if a dog you selected from a dog-tolerant breed ended up being DA later in life? I'm genuinely curious. I wonder how many people with non-APBTs consider this possibility.

There is always a possibility this will happen, however you have a far better chance of having a house full of Goldens who get along than APBTs. There's nothing wrong with choosing a breed who is the most likely to meet your needs.

The reason I have no more GSDs is because there is a fairly big risk of same sex DA towards household dogs in the breed. I didn't knowor expect that when I first got the GSDs. Although I was warned I didn't take the warning seriously. I ended up with two GSD bitches who would have fought to the death of one and one GSD who wanted to kill any other bitch she lived with (yet was not DA otherwise). I dealt with it through careful management and C&R for over a decade and would again if needed. But I'd rather not. While I realize there is a risk of such things in any dog, I'd prefer to avoid it if at all possible. I would not buy a puppy of any breed from a line that was known for same sex DA issues or who had parents or multiple close relatives who seriously fought with household dogs. If I still end up with same sex aggression towards household dogs, I'd deal with because I'd have to. But it would be unfortunate to have such bad luck and it sure woulnd't be my preference.

DA or DR to some degree towards non-household dogs isn't as big an issue for me unless it's really serious or uncontrollable. My dogs don't go to dog parks and don't need to make other doggy friends. The only dogs I have now who are really good with all other dogs are Whimsy and Savvy. The rest have varying degrees of inappropriate behavior towards at least some other dogs, most of which is not really an issue because it's easy to control or avoid. None are all out, serious wanting to kill other dogs either though. Just snarky, guardy, intolerant of rudeness or overly macho in some situations.

[Red.Apricot]

Originally Posted by Bahamutt99

A question to those who have said they value dog-tolerance and have deliberately chosen dog-tolerant breeds because of that. What would you do if a dog you selected from a dog-tolerant breed ended up being DA later in life? I'm genuinely curious. I wonder how many people with non-APBTs consider this possibility.

I'm one of those who doesn't want to deal with full-on dog aggression, but if my dog ended up, for some reason, unable to be left loose in the house with our other dog, we'd deal with it. I'm assuming this is some weird universe where we know it's not a medical issue, and it's just her hating him for some reason, because it'd require a huge personality change. Anyway, we'd crate and rotate and deal.

I just don't want to.

[Linds]

Originally Posted by Bahamutt99

A question to those who have said they value dog-tolerance and have deliberately chosen dog-tolerant breeds because of that. What would you do if a dog you selected from a dog-tolerant breed ended up being DA later in life? I'm genuinely curious. I wonder how many people with non-APBTs consider this possibility.

I would deal.

I would more than likely work long and hard to make sure that all the house dogs can tolerate each other because I honestly really don't want to crate and rotate on a daily basis.

Will if I have to though.