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  #21  
Old 11-10-2011, 05:33 PM
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So DA is something that is directly correlated with other traits then? (Gameness, for example.) If so, then I agree with everyone - it should just be left alone.

But, if it were able to be bred out and the dog still stay high drive/have the temperament it is supposed to (I'm not just talking about Pitties here, BTW, but all dog aggressive/same sex aggressive breeds - like Dobes and their male/male issues) it seems like it wouldn't hurt to eliminate it.

Another question:

Is DA a natural thing for dogs, or is it a result of man selecting for certain traits? Are feral-type dogs naturally DA, or dog social?
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  #22  
Old 11-10-2011, 05:45 PM
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I didn't read all the previous posts... I am just throwing out my personal opinion on the topic

Dogs that are bred for a purpose require certain traits to perform that purpose. Border Collies would be worthless without their herding instincts and intelligence... Guard dogs would be worthless without their wariness and discrimination... Racing dogs would be worthless without their graceful, leggy build, etc.

Back in the time when dog fighting was a legal sport, APBTs were worthless without dog aggression. And, in my opinion, dog aggression is not simply a desire to kill another animal - it's a desire for combat. Dog fights were not 5 minute ordeals that left a dog dead... they were 30-90 minute events that tested a dog's stamina, strategy, determination, etc. (all the traits that go into a dog being "game"). All of these traits go into the making of a "dog aggressive" dog, so yes - if you attempted to breed out dog aggression, you're going to lose pretty much all of the traits that result in the APBT.

I don't think a dog's level of dog aggression, these days, should be a factor either way in whether the dog should be bred. I think the dog's accomplishments and health testing results should determine if the dog reproduces. Anyone looking into acquiring an APBT should know and respect the history of the breed, and the traits that are inherit in the breed. If the traits are undesirable to someone, then they should look into another breed.
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  #23  
Old 11-10-2011, 09:31 PM
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I still baffled as to how exactly gameness and DA tie together (this is just me being ignorant btw).

Plenty of DA breeds are not known for their gameness. Then there are hound breeds that get along well in groups who are extremely driven and game while engaging game. My dogs are tenacious freaks when they run into a coyote, in that they'd continue fighting with a coyote to the point of exhaustion or serious injury because they want to and it's fun. My aunt's german shepherd was defensive around them, and the one time she did start to scrap with one she bailed and ran back to us humans before it got very far.

So, if DA = gameness then why aren't all these incorrect goldens and labs really game to go along with their DA?
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  #24  
Old 11-10-2011, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *blackrose View Post
Are feral-type dogs naturally DA, or dog social?
This is a really interesting question. My own guess would be that they're wary with outsiders, but not outright DA. A wild animal has to protect its resources, but in the case of social animals like dogs one that is DA would lose out on the benefits of cooperative living.
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  #25  
Old 11-10-2011, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *blackrose View Post
So DA is something that is directly correlated with other traits then? (Gameness, for example.) If so, then I agree with everyone - it should just be left alone.

But, if it were able to be bred out and the dog still stay high drive/have the temperament it is supposed to (I'm not just talking about Pitties here, BTW, but all dog aggressive/same sex aggressive breeds - like Dobes and their male/male issues) it seems like it wouldn't hurt to eliminate it.

Another question:

Is DA a natural thing for dogs, or is it a result of man selecting for certain traits? Are feral-type dogs naturally DA, or dog social?
In APBTs, you can't breed out the DA and expect not to lose any of the positive traits. It creates a whole other breed; that is why APBTs are vastly different from AmStaffs.
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  #26  
Old 11-10-2011, 09:47 PM
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Gameness is being on the losing half of that coyote, bear, or cat and continuing on. Gameness is the dog that breaks it's leg and still finishes the race or agility course.

DA imo is the ability to start the scratch, gameness is the want to finish it no matter what happens. Can other breeds be game? Sure. Does DA = game no... but you can't finish what you never started.

eta : I guess as I think of it game = fight drive. Either a dog has it or they don't - there are a great many police dogs where once someone brings the pain they fold, then there are those few where they light up like the 4th of July and could probably be gutted alive before they stop fighting the perp.
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  #27  
Old 11-10-2011, 09:56 PM
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while i agree W/ Dekka that there is some correlation, i think we would both agree that correlation is not an absolute. i think it relates more to a no crap taking attitude.
I know wolfers whose stags have killed or attempted to kill other dogs including kennel fights. OTH Sonic has been game as heck on hard fighting coons but is/was as dog friendly as could be. lots of hunting dogs that'll fight game hard but are not DA/DR in the least. likewise lots of dogs that were DA but not worth a crap on game have been culled. so i would say it's trait whose ties to gameness aren't clearly known. further i'd say that with certain breeds eliminating it w/o losing working ability is possible and desirable, just the bull & terrier breeds are not on that list because it would result in a whole new & different breed.
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  #28  
Old 11-11-2011, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kat09Tails View Post
eta : I guess as I think of it game = fight drive. Either a dog has it or they don't - there are a great many police dogs where once someone brings the pain they fold, then there are those few where they light up like the 4th of July and could probably be gutted alive before they stop fighting the perp.
I think you're right on the fight drive and have thought that the DA issues with GSDs were likely tied to the selection for fight drive. Of course, it seems a great deal of people now like to pretend like there are no DA issues in GSDs.

I also wanted to revisit this comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by *blackrose View Post
Breeds have changed over time, though. Whether that was for the better or not...meh. In past years, DA used to not be a problem. If your dog fought another dog, it was just being a dog. Nowadays, if your dog attacks another dog it is a big deal. On another forum, Sarah posted an article about a Staffie mix being deemed dangerous and euthanized after it got out of its yard after a guest left a gate opened and attacked a cat.
That could happen with just about any breed or mix. Dogs as a species tend to have prey drive. Some have less than what is "natural" because of selective breeding. I wonder how many birds and rodents this free roaming cat killed before the dog got him. Shouldn't the cat also be considered a "dangerous animal" due to his willingness to kill small creatures? And sighthounds are still selectively bred for prey drive, should that be bred out of them too?
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  #29  
Old 11-11-2011, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *blackrose View Post

Another question:

Is DA a natural thing for dogs, or is it a result of man selecting for certain traits? Are feral-type dogs naturally DA, or dog social?
Pariah dogs seem to be quite social. Wild animals don't tend to fight often. Only over things that REALLY matter as a minor injury can kill you. If as a predator you are lame and can't hunt effectively you starve, also infection.

Feral animals seem to adopt this, likely simply out of attrition.
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  #30  
Old 11-11-2011, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
That could happen with just about any breed or mix. Dogs as a species tend to have prey drive. Some have less than what is "natural" because of selective breeding. I wonder how many birds and rodents this free roaming cat killed before the dog got him. Shouldn't the cat also be considered a "dangerous animal" due to his willingness to kill small creatures? And sighthounds are still selectively bred for prey drive, should that be bred out of them too?
Oh, I know. I think the situation I posted about was so...unfair and messed up, and I honestly think that if it hadn't been a bully breed the judge would not have made the ruling he did.

But, prey drive is a natural thing. DA, it seems, is not.

I wonder how DA cropped up in the first place in the breeds were it isn't desirable? (So, obviously, the fighting breeds are excluded from this line of thinking.)
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