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  #131  
Old 04-05-2012, 12:33 PM
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sassafras sassafras is offline
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Freehold, you've done a great job of articulating how I've been thinking about this.

I think it's a terrible idea to say, "I'm going to eliminate DA from my lines/breed by not breeding any dogs with DA" because it's just not that simple and you just don't know what else you're losing.

BUT, having said that, if it came down to "all else being equal I'm going to choose to breed the dog without DA" I think over a long period of time DA could probably be reduced in a breed without necessarily losing other desirable traits.

It's just that "all else being equal" is sort of a Hypothetical Land scenario. It's probably not something that is going to happen a lot. There are too many variables and too many factors that would have to line up to be "equal". So it's sort of a mental exercise, I guess.
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  #132  
Old 04-05-2012, 12:46 PM
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nobody said that game = DA/DR
I didn't meant to imply that anyone had made such a claim. However, there is this overwhelming concern that breeding out DA would ultimately lead to the extinction of the working traits that are so highly desirable in the breed (namely, "game" or grit). I'm just suggesting that careful breeding could prevent this (as noted below):

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I would select proactively towards dogs who have all the traits I want, and minimal DA.
I'm not saying that it is a worthwhile endeavor (as I've said, I would not purchase an APBT, DA or not, although I love to admire them from afar)...just that it might not be horrible for the breed if it could be done responsibly. It's like breeding for color: as long as it's concurrent with responsible breeding practices, it is still possible for the integrity of the breed to be maintained (IMHO).

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when my dogs are 'working' which includes ratting they ignore all personal issues. Dekka was ratting at a friends barn when one of her dogs got loose and came flying in. Normally that would have been a trigger for Dekka, but she was so 'busy' that she ignored the other dog even when it was right around her trying to 'help'. So there is likely truth in their opinion.
That is fabulous! I do agree that it is a method that has a practical basis, but I have also seen dogs go at it for several reasons while hunting. Sometimes if they are too riled (ie: frustration is high or they've just been let out of the truck) you'll get a little skirmish. The worst fights are often once they already have a pig: dogs in the back that aren't getting any action or are getting pushed around will sometimes try to control the dynamic, which puts everybody in danger.

I have no use for dogs like that in a pack setting. I would much rather let my guys go and not have to worry about them until they find what they were looking for. Likewise, I (unlike a lot of hunters) train my dogs on a solid recall and emergency down. It's a matter of personal preference (as I imagine it would be with APBTs).

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In your first paragraph - The dogs who weren't friendly to you should have been shot. Human aggression is in NO way related to dog/animal aggression and is NEVER accepted by reputable owners/breeders!
Yup! And I hope that my opinion on that is clear as well: I see those animals to be poor representations of the breed and of course don't base my opinion on them.

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I've yet to meet a hog hunter who will tolerate even a DR dog on their hunts... I completely understand why you'd separate yourself from those folks! Hog hunting is intense, and dogs need to not present a hazard to other dogs out there. Which is why MOST of the dogs out there are not purebred APBTs.
Absolutely. It just introduces another dangerous variable. The dogs should all be focused on their job rather than each other. Anything else and they are at a much higher risk of being injured.

Interestingly, back home there has been a shift toward APBTs as catch dogs, but they don't typically run with the hounds (partly because they don't have the endurance that a cur is going to put down). I have never seen one in action, but I would be leery of using them (and not just for DA reasons, of course).
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  #133  
Old 04-05-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Freehold View Post
Personally, I don't understand the attraction of dog-aggressive dogs. However, I'm not saying that people can't enjoy them - I just don't want one. I don't have the desire (or endurance) to manage dogs who might at any given time decide to rip into each other. Just not something I enjoy in any way.
IME, most (sane) people don't *want* dog-aggressive dogs. It's more that dog aggressive isn't considered important enough one way or the other to really be strongly considered as a reason to breed or not to breed a dog. With all the other things to select for, unless a dog is extreme, it's really not on the radar. Living with dog-aggressive dogs is inconvenient at best. But it's so integrally wrapped up with all the desirable traits, that to selectively breed away from it without losing the drive and spark and tenacity is, well, a daunting task.

People would rather deal with the inconvenience of dog aggression than risk watering down the breed. I understand that.
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  #134  
Old 04-06-2012, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by elegy View Post
IME, most (sane) people don't *want* dog-aggressive dogs.


True, true. Though sadly I have met some who were... not sane enough to fit that category But that's a completely different subject

I respect that it would be REALLY hard to do. But possibly a worthwhile effort.
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  #135  
Old 04-09-2012, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by elegy View Post
IME, most (sane) people don't *want* dog-aggressive dogs. It's more that dog aggressive isn't considered important enough one way or the other to really be strongly considered as a reason to breed or not to breed a dog. With all the other things to select for, unless a dog is extreme, it's really not on the radar. Living with dog-aggressive dogs is inconvenient at best. But it's so integrally wrapped up with all the desirable traits, that to selectively breed away from it without losing the drive and spark and tenacity is, well, a daunting task.

People would rather deal with the inconvenience of dog aggression than risk watering down the breed. I understand that.


Very well put!

I have dogs because *I* enjoy dogs - I don't have dogs because my DOGS enjoy dogs!

But I also don't find having DA dogs to be difficult or inconvenient. Crate and rotate isn't interfering with my life, or hard to do. It's definitely not something everyone is wired to manage... but I feel the same way about people who have dogs they take to the dog park. Even if I had a "dog friendly" breed, I would NEVER!
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